XenonES3

It seems like a number of us here drive Lexus vehicles for reliability. Then, we modify our cars to equal or surpass their German counterparts in handling, feel, and looks.

Sales of BMW and Mercedes cars STILL crush Lexus cars in their respective categories (only the ES and RX hold their own, and the LS to certain extent), meaning Lexus' reputation for reliablilty/quality is not enough.

My question is, what IS the difference in quality/reliability, specifically between BMW and Lexus. If BMW ownership costs are higher, by HOW MUCH? Is the difference significant enough to choose a more tame Lexus over a more exuberant BMW?

My parents have a M5, Z3, and 745i, the cars are still relatively new so reliability can't be properly judged, but so far, all three cars have been relatively trouble free.

How have all of your long term experiences been with BMW?

Thanks!

Iceman

A few thoughts here from someone who had an M Roadster for three years and who has now had a GS for about a year and a half.

While BMW and MB cars may outsell some of their direct competitors from Lexus, raw sales numbers are not the only gauge of success. Just ask GM and Ford who lose thousands of dollars on every car they sell--they'd much rather sell fewer cars at a profit than lots of cars at a loss. Scarcity can increase the cachet and value of a brand--it's one reason I went for a GS. Just look at BMW and especially MB resale values.

As for total ownership costs, all scheduled maintenance was included during the three years I had my Bimmer (plus of course warranty repairs), so my maintenance costs were zero. The Lexus clearly loses in this category, until you consider that my GS has only been in the shop for scheduled maintenance while my M Roadster was (are you sitting down?) in the shop an average of more than ONCE A MONTH during the time I owned it. I can't put a dollar amount on the frustration and inconvenience, but it certainly cost BMW my business when it came time for a new car.

As far as Lexus being "tame" and BMW "more exuberant", I think that if you compare comparably-priced competitive vehicles you will find that the difference is smaller than commonly believed. To get an exuberant Bimmer, you have to spring for the larger engines and sports packages. Then, to even approach the luxury inherent in a Lexus you have to add a slew of other options. Now a "comparably-equipped" BMW costs $10K-$20K more than its Lexus counterpart.

Does that help at all?

kylesc400

speaking of resale values, holy crap. i bought a 99 740il, new with navigation, for almost 70k. sold it in october, 2002, still MINT with almost no mileage (about 20k) for almost 35k, and i think i got lucky with that. i cant think of any other car that loses half its value in 3 years, my god. btw, just looked up the current going rate, and its dropped about another 6k in the past year

on the positive side it was a great car, but expensive as hell to maintain (outside the warranty). bmw is flat out overpriced when it comes to maintenance, where lexus is much more reasonable. ironically, the reason i sold the bmw was because i bought my sc400 because i wanted something sportier, and ended up rarely driving the bmw anymore. lexus can compete with any of the bmw sport models, with the exception of the m models, for now.

UncleNick

resale values for German cars suck. Last month in the paper, was a 97S600, yes V-12 flagship MS sedan in the day....originally sold for well over $120,000 .......This car was mint, with 76,000 miles on it and AMG 18 wheels, asking price was $29,995 at a local Infinity dealer. Talk about loosing your a$$!!!!!!!!

RON430

My last 740 (the last of five bimmers) was before the "free" scheduled maintenance. Under warranty over three years I averaged right around $4300 a year in maintenance costs. Company car, so the records were kept pretty accurately. The value of the time I spent going in for service and the frustration of trying to figure out when the car was coming back? Who knows.

Bimmers and Mercs are fine cars but take a peek at the new Car and Driver where out of six luxury sedans, the S class came in sixth and the 7 came in third. The new LS came in first. I am in awe and am pretty well convinced that when one or both of the GS's we own are going in for trade, an LS is almost certainly going to replace one of them. Interesting how my service computer would send me in for service every six to eight weeks on the 7 but once they started to pay for maintenance, the schedule has been noticeably extended. Sure I would like Lexus to extend maintenance intervals and not charge for lubing the ash tray on a scheduled service but, as with others, my GS has been in for one unscheduled maintenance in 27 months of ownership.

Obviously people have different priorities when they buy a car and that is OK with everyone here. But when I get ready to lay down 50, or 60 or 70 large (or more) I do not intend to get to know the names of the kids of the service people. Lexus is not a perfect car (nothing has yet claimed that title), but if you do value reliability, the odds are heavily stacked in your favor with a Lexus and against you with a bimmer or Merc.

kylesc400

ya know what, before this turns into a bmw/benz bashing thread, id like to point out that both companys' overall reliability ratings are well above most mainstream manufacturers (ford's actual ford cars, chevy's, saturn's, whatever the 30k and under market has), they just look much worse when compared to toyota/lexus. i like all three manufacturers and they all have cars worth buying, but i think toyota stands alone at the top for reliability.

D2-AUTOSPORT

Very good point, they are great cars, I just think people that frequent this site want the BEST of both worlds, ie, top shelf reliability (inherent quality of Lexus) and great performance(adding mods). Another thing that I would imagine tarnishes the BMW and M/Bs is their cost! If you purchase a 15k car and it goes in the shop alot then you would say, hey I bought a cheap car so whatever. But when you plunk down 80-130k, and you are always driving a loaner car, then people start to talk!! Its like "hey man I thought you just bought a S600, why are you driving that little hatchback 230?"

Another brand that has pretty bad reliability is Audi, my unlce had to replace the entire tranny on his 01 TT. Thank God for warranties!!

Captain Bone

You make a valid point. The only problem being that when you buy something so expensive it should/better be a more reliable car then the mainstread. If it isn't, then why are you buying it in the first place? Some 30K cars do the same as the 60K... the difference is looks, reliability and performance. Two out of the Three are met by BMW and Benz. Unfortunately, reliability isn't one of them.

-Anthony

UncleNick

I agree, I am just saying their re-sale values suck. I love the S600 sedan, but way to much $$$ to repair, buy and you will always loose when selling.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Yes, BMW/Benz may be more reliable than a Chevy, but the COST OF REPAIRS on BMW/Benz is astronomical so the annual maintenance costs will be way higher. It's actually a case of the old adage of 'more things to go wrong'. BMW and especially Benz are very complex cars. The Benz's with their electronic and hydraulic suspension, brakes, steering, throttle, tranny, etc., there's a ton going on in their cars trying to keep the relatively heavy vehicles under control.

I believe BMW and Benz will 'lose' in the end because the Germans are clueless about software in CONSUMER ELECTRONICS. Guess who shines in this area? Japan. BMW and Benz may make fast and capable vehicles, but if they're unusable, no one will buy them or those that do will (continue to) get stomped on resale values.

D2-AUTOSPORT

I totally agree, I always say that the Germans are not very good at producing reliable electronics, yet they LOVE to cram their vehicles full of them. Look at the gizmo laden 745 versus the LS430. Or compare the COMMAND center of a M/B Sclass to that of a GS430s NAV system. I'm willing to wager that if the Germans would outsource their electronics manufacture/design, that their reliability would see exponential improvement.

squarehat

From the ads I've seen in Road & Track and Car & Driver, COMAND and iDrive are both sourced from harmon/kardon. I'm looking at my December Road & Track as I type this, and there's an ad (page 24)showing how great their Navi and Logic 7 system is in the E-Class. Last month, I saw a similar ad proclaming how great their setup is in the new E60 5-Series.

Murph

I had a '98 740i. It looked good, was a blast to drive but it was a maintenence pig and always had something wrong with it. The BMW service advisor would just say that it's a very complicated high performance sedan. I got rid of it and bought yet another Lexus ( my GS400). I did speak privately with one of the lead mechanics and I asked him about reliability. He told me that the used BMW that the BMW mechanics buy are the 528i and 328i models. That inline 6 is a sweatheart.

Murph

RNM GS3

I wish BMW had as good reliability as Lexus. I really love the M3, its one of my favorite cars. It looks great, very powerful, and handles great, but i heard of too many horror stories. I would love to buy it but it may be too risky. I hate waiting to get my car fixed and dealing with dealers especially in nyc I just dont get why MB and BMW cant learn how to build reliable cars.