Plug-in Hybrids Like the NX 450h+ are Terrific, But Going Green Ain’t Cheap
01-05-24, 11:39 AM
#17
Driver School Candidate
We live in SF Bay Area and like many others live on a hill, (800 ft) above my local commute, plus our local driving often requires freeway for short distances.
There is NO way we can achieve 37 miles in EV mode in our normal driving routes.
I can see from local driving in town - flat areas - under 45 mph the NX will be able to beat 37 miles.
I totally cheat and use EV for light load driving, for high loads I switch to gas. In which case it is easy to get 37 miles.
There is NO way we can achieve 37 miles in EV mode in our normal driving routes.
I can see from local driving in town - flat areas - under 45 mph the NX will be able to beat 37 miles.
I totally cheat and use EV for light load driving, for high loads I switch to gas. In which case it is easy to get 37 miles.
01-05-24, 05:25 PM
#18
Some people switch to hybrid mode whenever they get on the highway. I stay in EV mode but I also charge at work, so I drive home on a full battery as well.
03-29-24, 07:52 PM
#21
1st Gear
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I just purchased a 2023 NX450H+. I traded in a 2015 Prius Plug-in that I bought in 2014. My trade in value was $12,500 with 99,000 km travelled, which I thought was a very good amount for a ten year old car. Over the years I averaged about 40% electric and 60% on gas. That means that the gas engine really only had 58,400 km on it. A lot less wear and tear on the engine compared to a non-plug-in model. I expect that the ratio will be much higher on electric with the new car and the engine will have a lot less actual use than what the odometer reads. I think this is a strong consideration for getting a plug-in. At the Toronto auto show in January, I met with a Toyota head office rep and I suggested to her that the plug-ins should have the ability to track the total hours of use for the engine since the odometer is not a true reflection of use. Also, since the engine has less usage, it should mean less engine repairs over the same time compared to the pure ICE vehicle.
03-29-24, 08:31 PM
#22
As a technology, plug-in hybrids offer a solution to reduce daily tailpipe emissions while stifling range anxiety. And yet, this technology isn’t priced in a way, in Lexus vehicles at least, that is accessible and affordable to general buyers. To reduce one’s daily environmental impact, or to save daily operating costs in places where electricity is cheap, one must first buy or lease a flagship-grade SUV. In that sense, plug-in hybrids feel less like a solution to a problem and more like a marketing ploy for certain types of buyers.
1. The concept of a PHEV is perfect for a lot of drivers. As noted several times, the average distance driven by Americans is around 30 miles (48 km), which is usually lower than the typical range of a good PHEV (around 60 km or 37 miles for the Lexus versions). So theoretically, one could spend the vast majority of time driving in EV mode, so long as the person remembers to charge every night.
2. However, I agree that the price of the plugin versions has been questionably raised by (a) only offering the plug ins in the luxury trim and (b) almost all the RX450h+ were pre-installed with "optional" packages such as technology package, ML audio system, etc, all of which brings the MSRP+DPH to an astounding $75k or so...this is fully $15k more than the RX350h luxury version base price!
At that price point, I doubt you could recoup the difference in gas savings for a long time, UNLESS you drive a hell of a lot in EV mode AND grid prices are relatively cheap.
3. In that case, buying the Lexus plug in versions is less about cost-savings, than about testing out the plugin life (and helping the environment). What is it like to be able to use EV around town, but also have the freedom to go out farther with no anxieties?
That was the question I was thinking about when I decided to get the PHEV version, and so far I have no regrets at all. .
4. Saying that, there is some reasoning that there will be much cheaper plug in alternatives in future as manufacturers push out more of these vehicles in order to satisfy the upcoming mandates (assuming the political winds don't change)
Right now, the cheapest plug ins are still mid-price levels:
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...lug-in-hybrids
But perhaps there will come a time when PHEVS are a bit more affordable, although HEVs will likely always be cheaper and will probably sell hell more all the time.
1. The concept of a PHEV is perfect for a lot of drivers. As noted several times, the average distance driven by Americans is around 30 miles (48 km), which is usually lower than the typical range of a good PHEV (around 60 km or 37 miles for the Lexus versions). So theoretically, one could spend the vast majority of time driving in EV mode, so long as the person remembers to charge every night.
2. However, I agree that the price of the plugin versions has been questionably raised by (a) only offering the plug ins in the luxury trim and (b) almost all the RX450h+ were pre-installed with "optional" packages such as technology package, ML audio system, etc, all of which brings the MSRP+DPH to an astounding $75k or so...this is fully $15k more than the RX350h luxury version base price!
At that price point, I doubt you could recoup the difference in gas savings for a long time, UNLESS you drive a hell of a lot in EV mode AND grid prices are relatively cheap.
3. In that case, buying the Lexus plug in versions is less about cost-savings, than about testing out the plugin life (and helping the environment). What is it like to be able to use EV around town, but also have the freedom to go out farther with no anxieties?
That was the question I was thinking about when I decided to get the PHEV version, and so far I have no regrets at all. .
4. Saying that, there is some reasoning that there will be much cheaper plug in alternatives in future as manufacturers push out more of these vehicles in order to satisfy the upcoming mandates (assuming the political winds don't change)
Right now, the cheapest plug ins are still mid-price levels:
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...lug-in-hybrids
But perhaps there will come a time when PHEVS are a bit more affordable, although HEVs will likely always be cheaper and will probably sell hell more all the time.
03-30-24, 10:57 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
since a phev has the complexity of an ev + an ice vehicle + combining the two, there's no way it can be cheaper than an ev to build. it also suffers from major packaging disadvantages and usually a noisy 4 banger when the battery isn't enough.
as the ev charging infrastructure grows and improves, the need/want for phev will decline and used ones will drop in resale.
with so much on the line though, the fossil industry will continue to pay for 'studies' and spread other fud so people 'worry' about ev range, when most of the time it's a non-issue and really... how often do we read of someone becoming stranded that completely ran out of charge?
as the ev charging infrastructure grows and improves, the need/want for phev will decline and used ones will drop in resale.
with so much on the line though, the fossil industry will continue to pay for 'studies' and spread other fud so people 'worry' about ev range, when most of the time it's a non-issue and really... how often do we read of someone becoming stranded that completely ran out of charge?
03-30-24, 12:48 PM
#24
Lead Lap
Does the PHEV still have the tax credit? When I was looking at the PHEV Cayenne S PHEV it was $5k more than the Cayenne S but the PHEV got a $7,500 tax credit that made it cheaper if you leased it.
The question I had to ask myself was for essentially the same price, would I rather have the PHEV with a TTV6 or the non-PHEV with a TTV8. I would take the TTV8 myself all day every day.
The question I had to ask myself was for essentially the same price, would I rather have the PHEV with a TTV6 or the non-PHEV with a TTV8. I would take the TTV8 myself all day every day.
03-30-24, 01:14 PM
#25
since a phev has the complexity of an ev + an ice vehicle + combining the two, there's no way it can be cheaper than an ev to build....as the ev charging infrastructure grows and improves, the need/want for phev will decline and used ones will drop in resale. with so much on the line though, the fossil industry will continue to pay for 'studies' and spread other fud so people 'worry' about ev range, when most of the time it's a non-issue and really... how often do we read of someone becoming stranded that completely ran out of charge?
2. I'm pretty sure there will be PHEVs available to the public for the next couple decades, if not more.
And I'm pretty sure my PHEV will hold its value better than most high end BEVs when it's time to resell. It's the manufacturer that matters in this case, not the type of car - although it's telling that the Lexus and Toyota BEVs also lost their values - but maybe not as much as other BEVs as they are not in this list?
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/03/us...pact-industry/
3. Also, until someone can figure out how BEVs can avoid becoming immobile art displays when it gets really cold, there will always be a need for some other power source.
I'll keep my PHEV. I value the freedom I have to choose what type of power to use when I go out on long trips or short hops.
https://www.foxweather.com/extreme-w...-slow-charging
https://thehill.com/changing-america...winter-freeze/
Last edited by asj2024; 03-30-24 at 02:58 PM.
03-30-24, 02:22 PM
#26
03-30-24, 11:46 PM
#27
There were way more ICE "art displays" that day than BEV's in the Chicago area. It just doesn't make the news when gas cars won't start when it's super cold. Not having charge capabilities at ones home, plus waiting until the last minute to go look for a charger, was the root cause of the issue in your links. Keep trying, though.
Plus, BEVs also have auxiliary 12V batteries that can also fail, in addition to the massive traction batteries that fail and lose range.
So you want all people to have superchargers at home? It might take up to 24 hours on 220V depending on battery. Not to mention people who are NOT at home when the batteries fail, when the cold saps the traction batteries faster. Also, what happens when you get brownouts or blackouts during emergencies? You know, when you need it most.
The point is each type of car has positives and negatives. To blindly ignore them is not helpful.
ps. I'll also point out BEVs +PHEVs make up less than 1% of all cars, so you'd have to literally see thousands of dead gas cars piled up in one gas station to equal the EV cold weather problem in this case.
Last edited by asj2024; 03-31-24 at 12:36 AM.
03-31-24, 04:41 AM
#28
since a phev has the complexity of an ev + an ice vehicle + combining the two, there's no way it can be cheaper than an ev to build. it also suffers from major packaging disadvantages and usually a noisy 4 banger when the battery isn't enough.
as the ev charging infrastructure grows and improves, the need/want for phev will decline and used ones will drop in resale.
with so much on the line though, the fossil industry will continue to pay for 'studies' and spread other fud so people 'worry' about ev range, when most of the time it's a non-issue and really... how often do we read of someone becoming stranded that completely ran out of charge?
as the ev charging infrastructure grows and improves, the need/want for phev will decline and used ones will drop in resale.
with so much on the line though, the fossil industry will continue to pay for 'studies' and spread other fud so people 'worry' about ev range, when most of the time it's a non-issue and really... how often do we read of someone becoming stranded that completely ran out of charge?
03-31-24, 05:10 AM
#29
It's also likely we're going to see a lot more types of PHEVs in USA due to the upcoming mandate being revised to include PHEVs.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/29...-thats-coming/
Plus, you get manufacturers creating PHEVs that can go 2000 km (approx 1242 miles) on a single charge and tank of gas and you'll probably get interest in such cars.
https://carnewschina.com/2024/03/28/...-phev-systems/
Last edited by asj2024; 03-31-24 at 05:22 AM.
03-31-24, 06:31 AM
#30
Long lines of dead gas cars frantically trying to charge their 12V batteries in gas stations?
Plus, BEVs also have auxiliary 12V batteries that can also fail, in addition to the massive traction batteries that fail and lose range.
So you want all people to have superchargers at home? It might take up to 24 hours on 220V depending on battery. Not to mention people who are NOT at home when the batteries fail, when the cold saps the traction batteries faster. Also, what happens when you get brownouts or blackouts during emergencies? You know, when you need it most.
The point is each type of car has positives and negatives. To blindly ignore them is not helpful.
ps. I'll also point out BEVs +PHEVs make up less than 1% of all cars, so you'd have to literally see thousands of dead gas cars piled up in one gas station to equal the EV cold weather problem in this case.
Plus, BEVs also have auxiliary 12V batteries that can also fail, in addition to the massive traction batteries that fail and lose range.
So you want all people to have superchargers at home? It might take up to 24 hours on 220V depending on battery. Not to mention people who are NOT at home when the batteries fail, when the cold saps the traction batteries faster. Also, what happens when you get brownouts or blackouts during emergencies? You know, when you need it most.
The point is each type of car has positives and negatives. To blindly ignore them is not helpful.
ps. I'll also point out BEVs +PHEVs make up less than 1% of all cars, so you'd have to literally see thousands of dead gas cars piled up in one gas station to equal the EV cold weather problem in this case.
Yes, I believe at this point, only people with at home charging capabilities should be purchasing BEV's. It will take time for most locations to get to a point when it's not pretty much a necessity. My Model Y has never charged below 48A at home. In colder weather, the battery needs to warm up a bit to reach max charge rates. If I were to take it to a supercharger with 5% battery in -20 degree weather, I would not expect a good outcome. I would not have a problem at home.