Toys4RJill

The original statement I made was that German cars were more expensive to run. That is absolutely true. And it was in reference to comparison of the RX and ML55. Just look at fuel grades, far cheaper to run a many Lexus models based on the fuel requirements of just regular and I was referring to the ML55 and RX. Or tires, run flats usually cost more and I think almost all German cars are now using run flats. But maybe a few are not. Until more recently, very few Lexus or Toyota models carry turbos so the maintenance of changing plugs just isn’t there compared to the Germans that have had plugs for a lot longer, so intervals are longer.

Digging into maintenance items a little deeper. Your S560 will cost more to change the plugs based on the fact that you have 2 more cylinders than a Lexus LS500. Dig even deeper, the maintenance of V12 and W12s are more significant. And the AMG models require some serous maintenance. Go further and look at 12V and 48V batteries, obviously the additional of 48V batteries will require some sort of replacement later on.

as per the idea that German brands want the owner to have a car that runs at perfect spec so maintenance is further is not true. Fact is, Toyotas are required to be in the shop every 6 months whereas Mercedes and I think BMW is every 12 months. Not everything has to be “anti-Lexus”

finally, Mercedes has some odd services. Pano roof services etc.



here is an odd one for the ML55

SW17LS

Its not as true when you compare like kind German to Japanese car. Many Lexus models cost less to run because they aren't comparable to a German car in the same segment, The RX and the ML55 are a great example of that, the RX is a NA V6 with macpherson strut suspension and nothing really complex about it while the ML is much higher performance with a more advanced powertrain and suspension, so yeah its going to cost more to run. Compare an LS500 and an S500 or S450 and the difference is much smaller.

The difference is more in the complexity of the vehicles vs country of origin or brand.

The Lexus requirement for 5k intervals is only to rotate tires. Their major service maintenance intervals are the same so far as oil changes are concerned.

Nobody is being anti-Lexus...

Having had the experience of owning both cars, I stand by what I said. German cars have tighter and more complete maintenance requirements but in the end Lexus/Toyota specialists recommend going above and beyond the less comprehensive Lexus/Toyota schedule where MB Specialists don't because the schedule is more comprehensive. For instance Mercedes doesn't claim any fluids are "lifetime" fluids...they tried that and went back to specified intervals where Lexus is still trying to tell owners they never have to replace their transmission fluid.

Another example is MB wants the brake fluid changed every 20k miles which is WAY overkill, but it ensures perfect brake operation at all times.

Exactly, they are to ensure better operation over time. Lexus is content to let pano roofs develop rattles and such and MB isn't.

FrankReynoldsCPA

New video from Savagegeese that I thought might interest @SW17LS

SW17LS

I will check it out! He did the i7 Previously

Striker223

My physical owners manual says 60k for my 07

SW17LS

Yeah it was 60k and they increased it to 120k in later years

Striker223

Thanks, also as you said oftentimes Lexus and Mercedes vehicles aren't comparable at the high end but if we used a ML320 vs RX330 then it's way more fair.

Jill, as fun fact you might want to know is that in my generation of A8 between the 3.0 TDI, 4.2, 4.0, and W12 engines the book times for the same jobs are the shortest on the W12 oddly enough......and book times for many things are actually less than a lot of the same stuff in the 460. Having worked on all 3 cars the LS is the worst packaging wise

SW17LS

Even then the ML320 is still more complex and sophisticated

Toys4RJill

They were the same for all years of the LS460

SW17LS

Then they require similar spark plug maintenance despite it being NA and the MB being turbocharged

geko29

And if you had been driving Mercedes that whole time and had never changed a fuel filter, you’d probably be ok too. Toyota doesn’t have “magic” filters that never collect sediment (that is, after all, a filter’s job). But since nearly all of their filters are in the tank—and a few models require replacing the entire tank—it doesn’t exactly behoove them to specify periodically ripping the car apart to replace them.

That’s because the actual interval isn’t as important as just NOT ignoring it indefinitely. Again, Toyota brake fluid isn’t magical and 50% better than everyone else’s. Change it every few years and you’re good.

From the horse’s mouth:

"Regular maintenance intervals will substantially increase the automatic transmission's service life. ZF recommends a regular oil change at between 80 000 and 120 000 km or after 8 years depending upon the stress."

Your 4Runner uses Toyota WS fluid. When WS was first introduced, it had no maintenance interval in any application—it was formally advertised as “lifetime”. In 2011, they issued T-SB 0006-11 clarified this to add a 100k maintenance interval, but still claimed it never required changing. “100,000 mile maintenance Interval is an inspection only, ATF-WS does not require any flushing or changing during the life of the vehicle.”

If your 4Runner requires changing at intervals—and I’m not doubting you that it does—then either the WS fluid has degraded and become “less-lifetimey” over the years, or Toyota has finally realized that they were wrong to refer to it as “lifetime” in the past. They can’t have two diametrically opposed positions, and both be right.

I would if there were cause to. If it was stretched or clattering, something of that nature. I wouldn’t change it preventatively. I’ll probably have the one in my 335d inspected at 150-160k to make sure it’s still in good shape.

Striker223

True to an extent since it does still have a low range AWD system and one more trans gear etc.....still a much more "fair" comparison.

Toys4RJill

In my service manual for 2004 it states.

Striker223

No it's not, wasn't and you can't change what it is. They retroactively lengthened the interval to lower "TCO" figures for the warranty period.

SW17LS

When they tell you that you only have to change fluid if you have a severe use case, they are saying that most people don’t have to change the fluid, and they are leaving an opportunity to screw
you if you don’t do it and you have an issue.

That’s what we’re talking about, Toyota is not being genuine about what they feel the car needs. You won’t find a Toyota specialist who does not believe that fluid needs to be changed.

I would rather the manufacturer be honest with me and say “hey, fluid needs to be changed at 60k miles”