General Car Conversation 2024 - part 1
02-02-24, 06:26 PM
#1024
Lead Lap
Went to Land Rover today to drive a Range Rover. No Range Rovers to drive, wait is 10-12 months for a SWB model, 12-15 months for a LWB model with no third row and 18+ months for a LWB model with the third row. He said honestly "you basically have to just order and have no time horizon, there is no way to know when it will come in".
So, obviously couldn't drive that. I did drive a Sport, and Sports are easy to get. They have 6 on the lot and the wait for a custom order is about 6 months. I really liked the Sport, even with the base 6 cyl it just feels an order of magnitude more special than the V8 GLS I drove. Interior quality was just absolutely top notch, I didn't care for the piano black under the infotainment screen, but all the materials were great with no hard plastic anywhere other than the low B pillars, doors are full leather/soft material even on the base car. Base leather dramatically better than any leather on the GLE/GLS except the exclusive nappa. Love the dark chrome accents everywhere, great seats and great seating position.
Ride and drive are great, truly the only SUVs I have driven where you give up very little from a sedan. Ride was 90% as nice as my S Class even on the shorter Sport model, a hair more wind noise at 75-80 but not much, very well isolated from the road. The I6 gives a nice growl when pushed and is very smooth, smoother than MB's I6, more similar to the BMW B58.
Sizewise its a very nice size, even adjusted for me there was enough space in the second row, although obviously nowhere near whats in the S Class. If I were to do an SUV, a Range Rover would be what I would want. BUT, I think for me what I want is the full Range Rover and a Sport, even a really high spec one which I could get, I'm always going to be wanting the big one just like when I had other Lexuses I always wanted the LS, and then I wanted the S Class...
I could just order a Range Rover spec'ed how I want and still buy out the S560 and just see what happens...
So, obviously couldn't drive that. I did drive a Sport, and Sports are easy to get. They have 6 on the lot and the wait for a custom order is about 6 months. I really liked the Sport, even with the base 6 cyl it just feels an order of magnitude more special than the V8 GLS I drove. Interior quality was just absolutely top notch, I didn't care for the piano black under the infotainment screen, but all the materials were great with no hard plastic anywhere other than the low B pillars, doors are full leather/soft material even on the base car. Base leather dramatically better than any leather on the GLE/GLS except the exclusive nappa. Love the dark chrome accents everywhere, great seats and great seating position.
Ride and drive are great, truly the only SUVs I have driven where you give up very little from a sedan. Ride was 90% as nice as my S Class even on the shorter Sport model, a hair more wind noise at 75-80 but not much, very well isolated from the road. The I6 gives a nice growl when pushed and is very smooth, smoother than MB's I6, more similar to the BMW B58.
Sizewise its a very nice size, even adjusted for me there was enough space in the second row, although obviously nowhere near whats in the S Class. If I were to do an SUV, a Range Rover would be what I would want. BUT, I think for me what I want is the full Range Rover and a Sport, even a really high spec one which I could get, I'm always going to be wanting the big one just like when I had other Lexuses I always wanted the LS, and then I wanted the S Class...
I could just order a Range Rover spec'ed how I want and still buy out the S560 and just see what happens...
Two people I know have 2024 RR, both white, both with the base engine but one is a SWB and the other is a LWB with third row. The one LWB with the third row has the black interior with the cream colored dash/doors and she had to wait two years to get it. She ordered a 2023 and had to re-order a 2024 when they switched model years. She just got it this afternoon and had 30 miles on it. Both RR's were there in person to check out but in a different part of the parking lot. The LWB looks loooong and the rear doors look huuuuge. There is no mistaking the LWB with the SWB. I liked everything about the front driver's area, seats were nice, dash, guage cluster/screen, HUD and center screen were really nice and what I would call elegant. What I was a little disappointed was how narrow and small the third row seating and rear cargo area was. For such a big SUV I expected more room and in the SWB the cargo area is even smaller. My wife noticed it right away and said the same thing. I would like a bit more cargo area than what they offer for my needs so I'm a little bummed so it may not be the next SUV for me.
The other thing is my wife really wants the V8 (there you go AJT, even my wife wants the V8) and when pricing out the two engine options the V8 was about $25k more than the V6. I can understand paying $10-$15k more but $25 is a bit much for a bigger engine so not sure the RR is the SUV for us. I like the third row seating in the LWB but I like the looks of the SWB so it's back to the drawing board in finding the next SUV.
02-02-24, 07:04 PM
#1025
Lexus Champion
Funny you brought the RR up. I was going to post my impressions of the 2024 RR tonight and I just saw this. I talked to a good friend of mine last night in the car biz and he knows someone at the dealer that can get me in one sooner so I was pretty pumped to check one out thinking it may be my new car.
The other thing is my wife really wants the V8 (there you go AJT, even my wife wants the V8) and when pricing out the two engine options the V8 was about $25k more than the V6. I can understand paying $10-$15k more but $25 is a bit much for a bigger engine so not sure the RR is the SUV for us. I like the third row seating in the LWB but I like the looks of the SWB so it's back to the drawing board in finding the next SUV.
The other thing is my wife really wants the V8 (there you go AJT, even my wife wants the V8) and when pricing out the two engine options the V8 was about $25k more than the V6. I can understand paying $10-$15k more but $25 is a bit much for a bigger engine so not sure the RR is the SUV for us. I like the third row seating in the LWB but I like the looks of the SWB so it's back to the drawing board in finding the next SUV.
I know this is the past, but let's revisit back before cars weren't designed around efficiency and the magazines weren't bought and paid for, propaganda crap.
Wow, car enthusaists encouraging consumers to pay nearly 7 grand per cylinder to get the V8 in a 5 series... The good old days....
What was the problem with that then? Cars should still be sold this way. The take rate was low then, too.
Last edited by AJT123; 02-02-24 at 07:17 PM.
02-02-24, 08:06 PM
#1026
Lead Lap
think his name's jim but here it's @Kansas , anyway he once described the difference between the two: he said the pioneer had a more clear digital sound, whereas the nakamichi had more of a warm analogue sound... either way i don't doubt the magnificence of the nakamichi
these days though i'm happier to have the pioneer being that nakamichi no longer really exists lol
these days though i'm happier to have the pioneer being that nakamichi no longer really exists lol
Yes, that's what I said about the standard Pioneer and the Nakamichi in the 1998-2000 LS400. I never did understand how the Nakamichi created the wonderful "presence". It's as if it was creating sound pressure waves that vibrated the air in the interior even at low and medium volume. I originally thought that the "magic" of the Nakamichi was in its amplifier but that was disproved when I had a screen based Kenwood head unit professional installed using the Nakamichi amp and all the Nak speakers. The Kenwood head unit with the Nakamichi amp sounded more similar to the 98-00 LS400 Pioneer system. I replaced the Nakamichi head unit after the right channel failed for the second time and I couldn't find anyone to repair it. I eventually gave the Nak head unit to a Club Lexus forum member who lived in Chicago IIRC.
I still miss the Nakamichi. The 14 speaker, 710 watt Bose system in the 2022 Porsche Cayenne that's been my daily driver since new sounds like crap compared to the 7-speaker Nakamichi in the 2000 LS400 I had.
It's good to see familiar members still participating in this forum. I think Steve @SW17LS must have been barely 16 years old and driving an ES300 when I started using this forum and the lexusowners club forum in the early 2000's.
Y'all take care.
02-02-24, 08:08 PM
#1027
Lead Lap
Hah, love it. Love the new RR, seriously looks good. The exhaust of the V8 RRs is meannn. My mother wasn't going for anything but the biggest V8 either and she's a boomer. She remote starts it when she walks up to it because she loves to hear the exhaust rumble, and it does. A lot more people like cars than people think. It's hilarious that she drives this gigantic Yukon but she wouldn't have it any other way, and I want her to be extra safe.
I know this is the past, but let's revisit back before cars weren't designed around efficiency and the magazines weren't bought and paid for, propaganda crap.
Wow, car enthusaists encouraging consumers to pay nearly 7 grand per cylinder to get the V8 in a 5 series... The good old days....
What was the problem with that then? Cars should still be sold this way. The take rate was low then, too.
I know this is the past, but let's revisit back before cars weren't designed around efficiency and the magazines weren't bought and paid for, propaganda crap.
Wow, car enthusaists encouraging consumers to pay nearly 7 grand per cylinder to get the V8 in a 5 series... The good old days....
What was the problem with that then? Cars should still be sold this way. The take rate was low then, too.
02-02-24, 08:11 PM
#1029
Lexus Fanatic
Well my name is Jim but most people call me ....... Jim. -- one of my favorite lines from Mell Brooks' Blazing Saddles.
Yes, that's what I said about the standard Pioneer and the Nakamichi in the 1998-2000 LS400. I never did understand how the Nakamichi created the wonderful "presence". It's as if it was creating sound pressure waves that vibrated the air in the interior even at low and medium volume. I originally thought that the "magic" of the Nakamichi was in its amplifier but that was disproved when I had a screen based Kenwood head unit professional installed using the Nakamichi amp and all the Nak speakers. The Kenwood head unit with the Nakamichi amp sounded more similar to the 98-00 LS400 Pioneer system. I replaced the Nakamichi head unit after the right channel failed for the second time and I couldn't find anyone to repair it. I eventually gave the Nak head unit to a Club Lexus forum member who lived in Chicago IIRC.
I still miss the Nakamichi. The 14 speaker, 710 watt Bose system in the 2022 Porsche Cayenne that's been my daily driver since new sounds like crap compared to the 7-speaker Nakamichi in the 2000 LS400 I had.
It's good to see familiar members still participating in this forum. I think Steve @SW17LS must have been barely 16 years old and driving an ES300 when I started using this forum and the lexusowners club forum in the early 2000's.
Y'all take care.
Yes, that's what I said about the standard Pioneer and the Nakamichi in the 1998-2000 LS400. I never did understand how the Nakamichi created the wonderful "presence". It's as if it was creating sound pressure waves that vibrated the air in the interior even at low and medium volume. I originally thought that the "magic" of the Nakamichi was in its amplifier but that was disproved when I had a screen based Kenwood head unit professional installed using the Nakamichi amp and all the Nak speakers. The Kenwood head unit with the Nakamichi amp sounded more similar to the 98-00 LS400 Pioneer system. I replaced the Nakamichi head unit after the right channel failed for the second time and I couldn't find anyone to repair it. I eventually gave the Nak head unit to a Club Lexus forum member who lived in Chicago IIRC.
I still miss the Nakamichi. The 14 speaker, 710 watt Bose system in the 2022 Porsche Cayenne that's been my daily driver since new sounds like crap compared to the 7-speaker Nakamichi in the 2000 LS400 I had.
It's good to see familiar members still participating in this forum. I think Steve @SW17LS must have been barely 16 years old and driving an ES300 when I started using this forum and the lexusowners club forum in the early 2000's.
Y'all take care.
02-02-24, 08:55 PM
#1030
Lexus Test Driver
well i'm glad i remembered your description accurately lol... well one reason those systems back then were (and still are) so damn good was that there was no expense spared with the development and tuning, with the best possible materials used
here is an article written by Ken Pohlmann, the actual man responsible for the tuning of the pioneer and nakamichi audio!
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-you-jay-homel
i won't quote the whole article here but here's my favorite part:
One day I was auditioning different tweeters and equalizations, trying to dial in the high-frequency sound. It measured flat, but I just didn’t like it. Finally, I pulled off a tweeter grille cover and took a close look. There was some internal bracing that looked problematic, and I also thought the percentage open area of the grille was lacking. I consulted with the Nakamichi engineers and they concurred.
Through a translator, I asked the chief Lexus engineer if we could change the grille. He winced, but excused himself and called headquarters in Nagoya, Japan. He came back and informed me that at this late stage any change would be very expensive. I forget the exact amount, but I am thinking he estimated somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000. Then he asked me two questions that I will never forget.
“Mr. Pohlmann, would the average listener hear any improvement?” I thought about that for a while, and answered negatively. Then he asked, “Mr. Pohlmann, would you hear a difference?” I did not hesitate, and answered affirmatively. He nodded, and replied, “Okay. We will make the change.”
It was then that I understood how serious there were about this car. They had told me that they wanted everything to be perfect, and they weren’t kidding. Throughout that tuning session, and in subsequent sessions, we did our level best to coax the best possible sound from the system.
Everything was top-notch. Those were the days when cost and weight were less constraining. We added some internal bracing and damping to the rear package tray to avoid resonances from the very meaty subwoofer mounted there. The loudspeakers were equal in quality to high-end home speakers, with die-cast aluminum frames. Every detail was considered. For example, noise-sensing circuits in the radio automatically adjusted the antenna mast height for optimal reception. I could write a book on this sound system.
Through a translator, I asked the chief Lexus engineer if we could change the grille. He winced, but excused himself and called headquarters in Nagoya, Japan. He came back and informed me that at this late stage any change would be very expensive. I forget the exact amount, but I am thinking he estimated somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000. Then he asked me two questions that I will never forget.
“Mr. Pohlmann, would the average listener hear any improvement?” I thought about that for a while, and answered negatively. Then he asked, “Mr. Pohlmann, would you hear a difference?” I did not hesitate, and answered affirmatively. He nodded, and replied, “Okay. We will make the change.”
It was then that I understood how serious there were about this car. They had told me that they wanted everything to be perfect, and they weren’t kidding. Throughout that tuning session, and in subsequent sessions, we did our level best to coax the best possible sound from the system.
Everything was top-notch. Those were the days when cost and weight were less constraining. We added some internal bracing and damping to the rear package tray to avoid resonances from the very meaty subwoofer mounted there. The loudspeakers were equal in quality to high-end home speakers, with die-cast aluminum frames. Every detail was considered. For example, noise-sensing circuits in the radio automatically adjusted the antenna mast height for optimal reception. I could write a book on this sound system.
02-02-24, 09:06 PM
#1031
Lexus Test Driver
the range is easily the coolest, i have no problem admitting that, and i think the interior is the coolest looking too... they make a good point about how the X7 and GLS are supposed to be 'SUV versions of sedans', but the range rover just is
predictably the range is also the worst built and most rattly inside, it also seems to handle sharp bumps and other road imperfections the worst... james said that the his passengers kept getting queasy from driving through toronto in it and "demanded" they instead take his 20 year old toyota century lmao
all are equally quiet and achieve roughly the same acceleration figures, but the range just feels the most baller to be in with the seating position and the sinister looks... between it, the GLS, and the X7, i'd go for a GLE580 with e-active body control
02-02-24, 11:43 PM
#1033
Lexus Champion
@SW17LS
https://youtu.be/3P4F5GWbrjc?si=7KowSpF45evpLskq
@SW17LS so you don’t think this is luxurious?
https://youtu.be/3P4F5GWbrjc?si=7KowSpF45evpLskq
@SW17LS so you don’t think this is luxurious?
02-03-24, 06:27 AM
#1034
Lexus Fanatic
idk if you posted this yet but i just watched the throttle house review of the RR, GLS, and X7 and i have to say the results were fairly predictable for me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuUaXXNgZFI
the range is easily the coolest, i have no problem admitting that, and i think the interior is the coolest looking too... they make a good point about how the X7 and GLS are supposed to be 'SUV versions of sedans', but the range rover just is
predictably the range is also the worst built and most rattly inside, it also seems to handle sharp bumps and other road imperfections the worst... james said that the his passengers kept getting queasy from driving through toronto in it and "demanded" they instead take his 20 year old toyota century lmao
all are equally quiet and achieve roughly the same acceleration figures, but the range just feels the most baller to be in with the seating position and the sinister looks... between it, the GLS, and the X7, i'd go for a GLE580 with e-active body control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuUaXXNgZFI
the range is easily the coolest, i have no problem admitting that, and i think the interior is the coolest looking too... they make a good point about how the X7 and GLS are supposed to be 'SUV versions of sedans', but the range rover just is
predictably the range is also the worst built and most rattly inside, it also seems to handle sharp bumps and other road imperfections the worst... james said that the his passengers kept getting queasy from driving through toronto in it and "demanded" they instead take his 20 year old toyota century lmao
all are equally quiet and achieve roughly the same acceleration figures, but the range just feels the most baller to be in with the seating position and the sinister looks... between it, the GLS, and the X7, i'd go for a GLE580 with e-active body control
@SW17LS
https://youtu.be/3P4F5GWbrjc?si=7KowSpF45evpLskq
@SW17LS so you don’t think this is luxurious?
https://youtu.be/3P4F5GWbrjc?si=7KowSpF45evpLskq
@SW17LS so you don’t think this is luxurious?