RNM GS3

EPA / Emissions compliance is by the umbrella company not each individual brand as far as i know - has this changed?
Dodge’s CEO has zero say in anything - Stellantis is run by Europeans.
They only care about Ram/Jeep brand as that’s the only thing that generates meaningful profits.
Dodge brand owners are the least likely of almost any brand to adopt to EVs therefore it was a dumb decision made by suits outside of US.


The ICE variants will be way more expensive than current Charger bec they are subsidizing the EV models, engine is more complex with more parts and the car itself is much heavier therefore requires more raw materials to produce.

This will be the death of Dodge and Chrysler which were on life support anyway.
They sell in tiny volumes in US and nobody knows them in any other market.

TangoRed

I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that’s the case. STLA Large, much like the rest of the flex platforms, was always multi energy from what I’ve seen. Back in 2021 when STLA Large and the rest of the platforms were announced they were careful to say it was “BEV-centric” and not “BEV only”. Further, Chrysler was the only American brand publicly slated to go all electric in any timeframe.

Volume matters, and Chrysler isn’t going to meaningfully contribute to CAFE for some time. Their electric SUV starts next year and the sedan’s production date hasn’t even been announced.

Stellantis brand CEOs actually do have power, that’s why they put them there in the first place. Tavares, the Stellantis CEO, has also fired them when they haven’t performed (see America COO, Jeep CEO, Jeep NA leader, Fiat NA CEO) and hired them where they didn’t exist (Chrysler CEO). Sure, they don’t pick the platforms but they are absolutely leading brand management. The Euro brands have the same setup.

STLA Large’s development was also primarily NA led which is why it’s launching here first and Italy second. STLA medium launches overseas first.

Bottom line, Dodge can’t be EV only but it can’t completely skirt electrification either. The party had to end sooner or later and at least ICE still survives. No doubt the V8 loyalists will pack up, but I have a feeling they’re not all going to automatically go to the Mustang or buy nothing at all.

That is pure conjecture on ICE price subsidizing the EV models. The car will certainly start at a higher price until/if the Pentastar V6 or 2.0t I4 is offered. The whole point of this flexible platform is to control costs via scale and shared parts, so I’m not buying a dramatic increase in price due to that either. Really, the only thing I agree with is that there will be lower volume especially in the absence of base models.

As far as no one knowing time in other markets…why would they? That’s like saying Peugeot is going to fail because Americans aren’t familiar with the brand. They are NA brands only and their sales expectations are set accordingly.

Truly, the STLA Large vehicles are high margin flagships for Dodge and Chrysler. My conjecture contribution is that the STLA Medium vehicles that will come later and contribute meaningful volume will determine if they survive.

RNM GS3

^
It’s not conjecture but common sense and we already seen this with many other brands. Just check out the new Ford Mustang and truck prices to pay for those lovely EVs.

There have never been any European CEOs that worked well with US execs. They don’t respect Dodge brand and I doubt care about what it represents.

TangoRed

If that’s the case, why did he promote Americans or expand their roles? He could have just as easily replaced them all with Euro leaders. Sergio Marchionne’s micromanagement of everyone on both sides of the pond was insane and common knowledge, but I haven’t heard the same thing about Tavares.

We will just have to see if the “dramatic” price increase occurs for the ICE models.

RNM GS3

Go on Stellantis website, click leadership team and show me how many Americans are there…Nobody cares about Dodge or Chrysler, they sold about 300k cars last year combined.

The regular non-Hellcat Charger/Challenger models have always had huge discounts. Can you imagine the level of discounts it will take to sell an EV Charger that will probably cost well over $50k.

TangoRed

I see Doug Ostermann in charge of their Leapmotor investment and China strategy, Christine Feuell for Chrysler, Tim Kuniskis for Dodge and Ram, Ned Curic as CTO, Ralph Gilles as chief design officer for Dodge/Chrysler/Ram/Maserati/Fiat LA, and Natalie Knight as Stellantis CFO. Those aren’t minor positions, and while the North America COO isn’t from the U.S. he isn’t from Europe either. He’s from South America. It’s a global company and that’s reflected in the LT.

Your point point on the discounts does nothing. As you’ve acknowledged, if there’s going to be discounts they’re going to be on the ICE and EV models. Not even sure what your point is. If the goal was to get rid of Chrysler and Dodge they would’ve done that already instead of continuing to invest, it’s as simple as that.

LH1

I see the Hurricane motor has 26psi of boost from the factory. Seems like a lot to me. How long are these engines going to last?

Here's the B58 for comparison:

geko29

If you'll pardon the pun, boost pressure cannot be categorized as "high" or "low" in a vacuum. Compression ratio is crucially important. The B58 uses a very high (for a turbo motor) compression ratio of 11.0:1. This helps improve light-throttle drivability at the expense of tolerance for high boost. So you see a stock limit of 11psi, and a reasonable usable ceiling of 20psi.

The S58 is a similar design, but with with a super-low compression ratio of 9.3:1. This design trades off non-turbo output for incredible ability to handle boost safely. Stock boost pressure is 24.7 psi for the Competition models (which make up about 80% of sales volume), and 30.5 psi for the CS and CSL models. There are folks with reliable 1,000 hp tunes running over 40psi with all stock internals.

For the Hurricane, the standard output has a compression ratio of 10.4:1, while this is dropped to 9.4:1 for the High Output model. I would have no concerns running 26psi of boost on an engine with 9.4:1.

RNM GS3

You are arguing facts and making no sense.
Here is a link to the Stellantis Executive team.
https://www.stellantis.com/en/company/governance/top-executive-team

Out of 35 people on the team, they only have 5 Americans!
That tells me they know nothing about US market.

The Dodge brand built its reputation on the V8 muscle car power. Now you took that identity away - so what is left?!
Look how badly the new Hornet is selling bec its not geared for Americans and costs way more than the car it replaced.

TangoRed

There’s 6 Americans and I literally listed them out for you. I couldn’t have been any more transparent about that. It’s absurd that you think that because the leadership of this global company isn’t majority American that automatically means they don’t understand the American market. It’s as if they don’t have direct reports bringing that expertise to them or something lol. The Stellantis CEO is spends much of his time talking about the importance of the American market and why he has reorganized leadership as necessary due to ineffective brand management and sagging sales. Carlos Tavares himself has done a leadership stint in the U.S. while he was with Nissan.

Also the Hornet itself was conceived by FCA and was practically done by the time Stellantis was formed. It also didn’t directly replace anything so I have no idea what you’re going on about on that tangent. It’s only purpose is amortize the cost of the mediocre Tonale, which isn’t lighting the world on fire in any market.

That Dodge painted itself into a corner only on V8s is clearly not sustainable. They are very clearly having to pivot the brand and tell you exactly what’s left with their future product. It’s still going to be a performance brand with the V8 or not. That’s exactly why the Charger, even in this new form, really has no direct competitors. In some ways this is a return to Dodge previous to Daimler Chrysler where its lineup was performance oriented and not solely based around the V8. Very funny that the V8 focus strategy came out under FCA with a majority Euro leadership team which in your mind means they didn’t understand the US market…

RNM GS3

So 6 out of 35 people is a viable ratio in your mind?


European and Japanese executives look down on American executives - this is a known fact going back decades.
All Japanese companies and all Euro companies are run with little to no control from US leaders in terms of decision making. They provide input but have no final say.

TangoRed

Consider the breakdown:
6 Americans (7 if you count Ashwani Muppasani, the COO India/South Pacific who actually lives in North Carolina and has had multiple U.S. leadership roles in his career)
4 South Americans
1 middle eastern man educated in France but living in Morocco

About a third of the LT are not European leaders. The NA brand leaders and COO are not European and report directly into Tavares. From
my view, I don’t have enough fear factor here to say NA leaders don’t have a say in what goes on in this region.

The DaimlerChrysler scenario, where American leadership was gutted and replaced with German Mercedes executives is what makes me nervous.

RNM GS3

^
By 2035 - there is high probability that either Dodge or Chrysler will not exist if not both. There is zero reason to run these as 2 separate brands given the low volume and margins they generate.

The conversion to EV will further erode sales and decrease profitability.
European leaders should have listened to Toyota and offered Hybrids rather than EVs.
I would guess most Dodge owners are younger and lower middle class and therefore don’t have access to garage or their own personal charger which is a huge hurdle to EV conversion. Again it all goes back to not understanding the US market.
I’m sure Tim Kuniskis layed all this out for his bosses and that is probably why there is even an ICE option. The EV models will be epic failures and i have zero confidence that they will have even decent reliability.

TangoRed

You realize how funny it is that you use a Japanese automaker as an example of understanding the American market the best right? Here we are having GM and Ford publicly admitting they are making a strategy pivot. Do their American executives not understand the American market? You unnecessarily blame European leaders for things that are pure conjecture.

All the platforms Stellantis is using are multi energy, including the ones that aren’t being used in the US. This thought they are obsessed with EVs only is misguided. Stellantis isn’t shy about hybrids obviously as they’re readily available in other models, but using your logic the loyal Dodge folks, conquest or not, wouldn’t be interested in those either anyways.

RNM GS3

Last I checked - Ford and GM still have V8s and introducing NEW models with those engines. They did some EVs to get the free money from uncle Sam and also need to meet emissions.
Mustang and Corvette are V8.
The new Shelby versions are coming.
ZR1 is coming / Zora
Ford also did Raptor R
Cadillac has the crazy CT5 Blackwing and Escalade V

There is zero comparison between Stellantis and GM/Ford.
Stellantis first allocates its resources to the European brands while American brands get leftovers or rebadge like the Dodge Hornet which is clearly not for Americans.

I honestly can’t believe that you feel Stellantis is not Euro biased given their executive team. Imagine if it was 29 Americans and 6 Europeans - the American brands would get much more focus!