What do you think about Toyota's strategy to move models to hybrid only?
04-09-24, 05:01 AM
#166
Advanced
Thread Starter
Like I said, if I was in CA I'd be one of those poor schumcks buying a H2 car. Just so I could amaze my friends about it!
Would help if the thing were hybrid and it could exist partly on gas. That's where Toyota made a mistake...it did not do what it did earlier that made gas hybrids so popular. I think that's hard to manufacture though (someone correct me)
There was an attempt to make a hydrogen plugin though by Ford:
https://greencarjournal.com/alternat...in-our-future/
There also currently is a niche manufacturer trying to do the same:
https://energy.revozero.com/
04-09-24, 05:08 AM
#167
Super Moderator
There's no room. The H2 tanks are HUGE, and already consume too much space that would otherwise be part of the interior. That's why, despite being the size of an Executive class sedan or a short wheelbase S-class on the outside, the Mirai is classified as a Compact car by the EPA. Now you want to add an engine, transmission, additional electric motor, exhaust system, and a gas tank. You're left with a 2 seater the size of a long-wheelbase S-class with no trunk that costs almost $100k and has to be fueled at two different stations.
Last edited by geko29; 04-09-24 at 05:12 AM.
04-09-24, 05:11 AM
#168
Lexus Fanatic
An excellent point, although I would also point out that was 1960s technology and not what we have today. Today, the average new vehicle in the American market has more computing power in its electronics than the central computer in the Saturn V rocket that went to the moon.
04-09-24, 05:13 AM
#169
Lexus Fanatic
"Amazing my friends" is a pretty weak reason to pay $50-70k for a Corolla, IMO.
There's no room. The H2 tanks are HUGE, and already consume too much space that would otherwise be part of the interior. That's why, despite being the size of an Executive class sedan or a short wheelbase S-class on the outside, the Mirai is classified as a Compact car by the EPA. Now you want to add an engine, transmission, additional electric motor, exhaust system, and a gas tank. You're left with a 2 seater the size of a long-wheelbase S-class with no trunk that costs almost $100k and has to be fueled at two different stations.
There's no room. The H2 tanks are HUGE, and already consume too much space that would otherwise be part of the interior. That's why, despite being the size of an Executive class sedan or a short wheelbase S-class on the outside, the Mirai is classified as a Compact car by the EPA. Now you want to add an engine, transmission, additional electric motor, exhaust system, and a gas tank. You're left with a 2 seater the size of a long-wheelbase S-class with no trunk that costs almost $100k and has to be fueled at two different stations.
Would help if the thing were hybrid and it could exist partly on gas. That's where Toyota made a mistake...it did not do what it did earlier that made gas hybrids so popular. I think that's hard to manufacture though (someone correct me)
/
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A car that sucks in O2 and pees water is not cool to you?
QUOTE=mmarshall;11703550]An excellent point, although I would also point out that was 1960s technology and not what we have today. Today, the average new vehicle in the American market has more computing power in its electronics than the central computer in the Saturn V rocket that went to the moon.[/QUOTE]
The space shuttle was powered by fuel cells so it could operate in space I think there were 4 fuel cells. They used this for 40 years.
thanks for quoting my post FOUR TIMES in your reply. pwi is an issue. 
i'm sure rolls royce is disappointed to know your feelings about their spectacular car.
did you even watch the video? or this much more thorough follow-up.
https://youtu.be/EEXieo06ta8?si=Wwtlp3HkqmL3R2V_
from what i can tell, the TWO instances in Canada of someone driving over something big in the road (one was ironically an ice EXHAUST), damaged the battery COVER, but the cars were still drivable, could still be charged, etc. nothing to see here, but because of confusion by dealers and insurance and obvious liability concerns they leaned to battery replacement or, because of the huge price to do so, writing off the car. regardless, it was ultimately an insurance issue, so the customers didn't end up paying anything.
hyundai (and other ev makers) are going to have to provide better answers / policies, but as much as you hate them, their ev's are going to continue to be sold. the new kia ev9 will be a huge hit for example.
another simplistic question. why do you drive planet destroying vehicles? why do you use electricity, produced there in hydroelectric dams, probably killing millions of fish? why do you exhale co2 killing the planet? why get out of bed?
55 years ago and still no hydrogen consumer cars except in minuscule numbers.
and still irrelevant.
i'm sure rolls royce is disappointed to know your feelings about their spectacular car.
did you even watch the video? or this much more thorough follow-up.
https://youtu.be/EEXieo06ta8?si=Wwtlp3HkqmL3R2V_
from what i can tell, the TWO instances in Canada of someone driving over something big in the road (one was ironically an ice EXHAUST), damaged the battery COVER, but the cars were still drivable, could still be charged, etc. nothing to see here, but because of confusion by dealers and insurance and obvious liability concerns they leaned to battery replacement or, because of the huge price to do so, writing off the car. regardless, it was ultimately an insurance issue, so the customers didn't end up paying anything.
hyundai (and other ev makers) are going to have to provide better answers / policies, but as much as you hate them, their ev's are going to continue to be sold. the new kia ev9 will be a huge hit for example.
another simplistic question. why do you drive planet destroying vehicles? why do you use electricity, produced there in hydroelectric dams, probably killing millions of fish? why do you exhale co2 killing the planet? why get out of bed?
55 years ago and still no hydrogen consumer cars except in minuscule numbers.
and still irrelevant.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-09-24 at 05:38 AM.
04-09-24, 05:27 AM
#170
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
thanks for quoting my post FOUR TIMES in your reply. pwi is an issue.
i'm sure rolls royce is disappointed to know your feelings about their spectacular car.
did you even watch the video? or this much more thorough follow-up.
from what i can tell, the TWO instances in Canada of someone driving over something big in the road (one was ironically an ice EXHAUST), damaged the battery COVER, but the cars were still drivable, could still be charged, etc. nothing to see here, but because of confusion by dealers and insurance and obvious liability concerns they leaned to battery replacement or, because of the huge price to do so, writing off the car. regardless, it was ultimately an insurance issue, so the customers didn't end up paying anything.
hyundai (and other ev makers) are going to have to provide better answers / policies, but as much as you hate them, their ev's are going to continue to be sold. the new kia ev9 will be a huge hit for example.
another simplistic question. why do you drive planet destroying vehicles? why do you use electricity, produced there in hydroelectric dams, probably killing millions of fish? why do you exhale co2 killing the planet? why get out of bed?
55 years ago and still no hydrogen consumer cars except in minuscule numbers.
and still irrelevant.
i'm sure rolls royce is disappointed to know your feelings about their spectacular car.
Look how expensive it is to fix your EV
from what i can tell, the TWO instances in Canada of someone driving over something big in the road (one was ironically an ice EXHAUST), damaged the battery COVER, but the cars were still drivable, could still be charged, etc. nothing to see here, but because of confusion by dealers and insurance and obvious liability concerns they leaned to battery replacement or, because of the huge price to do so, writing off the car. regardless, it was ultimately an insurance issue, so the customers didn't end up paying anything.
hyundai (and other ev makers) are going to have to provide better answers / policies, but as much as you hate them, their ev's are going to continue to be sold. the new kia ev9 will be a huge hit for example.
Why would you went to destroy the Earth with mining?
and still irrelevant.
04-09-24, 05:46 AM
#172
Lexus Fanatic
You had no idea they already existed. In twin turbo V12 hybrid form that is from Aston Martin in a racing spec designed for endurance
. There is no way batteries can supply every vehicle need on the planet and batteries only store energy unlike hydrogen which can actually create electricity.
A carbon free world will not occur with just batteries
. There is no way batteries can supply every vehicle need on the planet and batteries only store energy unlike hydrogen which can actually create electricity.
A carbon free world will not occur with just batteries
04-09-24, 06:13 AM
#174
Future of energy is nuclear fission. If it can power a sub for 30 years, at smaller scale should be able to power any car for its lifetime. https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/n...-possibility/#
04-09-24, 06:13 AM
#175
Super Moderator
Right. But the ask I was responding to was to make the Mirai a hybrid that could run on gasoline as well as Hydrogen, depending on what was available.
04-09-24, 07:55 AM
#177
Advanced
Thread Starter
This is why H2 is perfect for larger vehicles that don't necessarily care as much about volume used, but care about longer ranges, faster refueling times, and lower weight.
04-09-24, 08:00 AM
#178
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https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-au...ectric-vehicle
Why couldn't Toyota do the same?
04-09-24, 08:01 AM
#179
Lexus Fanatic
Now THIS is interesting...a plug in H2 car
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-au...ectric-vehicle
Why couldn't Toyota do the same?
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-au...ectric-vehicle
Why couldn't Toyota do the same?
Hey, I have insecurity issues.
Yeah I figured that, more's the pity. I also am wondering why the fuel is so expensive when H2 is already being produced in huge quantities for other commercial uses (in 2018, 10 million metric tons were produced in USA alone)
This is why H2 is perfect for larger vehicles that don't necessarily care as much about volume used, but care about longer ranges, faster refueling times, and lower weight.
Yeah I figured that, more's the pity. I also am wondering why the fuel is so expensive when H2 is already being produced in huge quantities for other commercial uses (in 2018, 10 million metric tons were produced in USA alone)
This is why H2 is perfect for larger vehicles that don't necessarily care as much about volume used, but care about longer ranges, faster refueling times, and lower weight.
04-09-24, 08:30 AM
#180
Advanced
Thread Starter
So, according to this the non-green H2 is $0.98 to $2.93 per kg...
In fact, H2 is actually the cheapest fuel around according to some sites, more than gas even.
IF you use the gray H2, and IF the infrastructure is there to get it to the cars.
The cost of Mirai fueling at the pump right now is $36/kg!!!! The MIrai tank hold 5.6 kg of fuel, so to fill up you'd need to spend more than $200.
If the cost of that was 10x less at $3.60/kg, then things would turn out different. That price is still above the highest cost of gray H2, so can add in transport costs, etc.
https://about.bnef.com/blog/green-hy...end-of-decade/
“Gray hydrogen, which comes from natural gas, costs $0.98-$2.93 per kilogram to produce. Blue hydrogen, or hydrogen produced with fossil fuels but subject to carbon capture, costs $1.8-$4.7 per kilogram. And green hydrogen, which is produced by running an electric charge through water, costs a whopping $4.5-$12 per kilo. In every single market we’ve surveyed, green hydrogen is more expensive than its gray counterpart.”
In fact, H2 is actually the cheapest fuel around according to some sites, more than gas even.
IF you use the gray H2, and IF the infrastructure is there to get it to the cars.
The cost of Mirai fueling at the pump right now is $36/kg!!!! The MIrai tank hold 5.6 kg of fuel, so to fill up you'd need to spend more than $200.
If the cost of that was 10x less at $3.60/kg, then things would turn out different. That price is still above the highest cost of gray H2, so can add in transport costs, etc.
https://about.bnef.com/blog/green-hy...end-of-decade/
“Gray hydrogen, which comes from natural gas, costs $0.98-$2.93 per kilogram to produce. Blue hydrogen, or hydrogen produced with fossil fuels but subject to carbon capture, costs $1.8-$4.7 per kilogram. And green hydrogen, which is produced by running an electric charge through water, costs a whopping $4.5-$12 per kilo. In every single market we’ve surveyed, green hydrogen is more expensive than its gray counterpart.”
Last edited by asj2024; 04-09-24 at 08:43 AM.