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What do you think about Toyota's strategy to move models to hybrid only?

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Old 04-08-24 | 02:38 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by LeX2K
I'll put it a different way. A naturally aspirated Toyota V6 with 270hp will be more reliable than a 270hp turbo 4-cylinder. Especially since Toyota owners are conditioned to being able to neglect maintenance and the car keeps going. You can't do that with a turbo engine long term.

A turbo is just like anything else in an engine.....the more (and harder) you use it, the more likely it is to wear out or fail. But you don't have to go around constantly boosting the engine...you can use a light foot.
Old 04-08-24 | 02:44 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by asj2024
Thread got sidetracked.

New CBS vid about hybrids surging while BEV sales are down 7% so far this year, again highlighting the fact the Toyota bet paid off, and explaining why Toyota is continuing its hybrid facing actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SthVni-l_Gc

And here is most recent news about the other type of hybrids , the plugins and BEVs in Toyota lineup:

Toyota U.S. Plug-In Car Sales Almost Doubled In Q1 2024
https://insideevs.com/news/715196/to...-sales-2024q1/

As you can see, Lexus owners seem to like plugins more, with a higher growth rate and higher share of total sales for Toyota, and PHEVs beat BEVs in the lineup for both Toyota and Lexus.

In Q1 2024, the Toyota group sold 17,832 plug-in electric cars (up 94% year-over-year). The share out of the total volume improved to 3.2% (up from 2.0% a year ago).

Plug-in car sales in Q1'2024:

Toyota plug-ins: 13,571 (up 67%) and 2.8% share

BEVs: 1,897 (up 12%) and 0.4% share
PHEVs: 11,674 (up 82%) and 2.4% share

Lexus plug-ins: 4,261 (up 272%) and 5.4% share

BEVs: 1,603 (up 766%) and 2% share
PHEVs: 2,658 (up 177%) and 3.4% share

Total plug-ins: 17,832 (up 93%) and 3.2% share

BEVs: 3,500 (up 86%) and 0.6% share
PHEVs: 14,332 (up 94%) and 2.5% share
Sales of hybrids magnificent.
All going to TMC's plans.

TMC's plan is to use gasoline-electric hybrids only as an intermediate "stop-gap" before mainstream EV's flood the market.
Like bitkahuna says, lithium ion powered EV's will only go so far to meet niche market early adopter needs, and lithium ion powered EV's are not meeting the needs of the mainstream market.

TMC never planned for lithium ion powered EV's to be a hit in the mainstream market.
However, TMC is the biggest investor in alternative battery chemistry especially solid-state battery patents!


Btw, only a state like California invests in massive hydrogen infrastructure.
Few other governments bother to invest in very expensive hydrogen infrastructure.

Furthermore, hydrogen in HFCEV's is very inefficient.
In the chart below, EV's have lost 31% energy efficiency.
While HFCEV's have lost between 77-81% of its energy efficiency!





NB
I see a few videos about Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines HICEV's being better than both HFCEV's and EV's.

However, the truth is that not only must hydrogen be produced by non-fossil fuel means, plus mass storage and transportation infrastructure like HFCEV's above, but hydrogen chemistry stores very little energy per unit volume, hence motor vehicles would end up with "massive fuel tank" sizes, and this is not practical.
Hydrogen has similar energy per unit weight to gasoline, but hydrogen has very poor energy per unit volume!

Furthermore, since air is 80% nitrogen, the nitrogen reacts with hydrogen and oxygen to produce toxic nitric oxides NO's which means that hydrogen internal combustion engines HICEV's are no longer true zero emission vehicles.



Last edited by peteharvey; 04-08-24 at 02:57 PM.
Old 04-08-24 | 04:17 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by LexusForever
Not sure how over 14k in tax incentives is that small.

But, YMMV.
Where could you get a $14k tax incentive to buy an EV? There have been $7,500 tax credits with stipulations...but those have been phasing out for years.
Old 04-08-24 | 04:21 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS
Where could you get a $14k tax incentive to buy an EV? There have been $7,500 tax credits with stipulations...but those have been phasing out for years.
7500 federal.

4000 state.
https://chargeup.njcleanenergy.com/

Plus, NJ doesn't charge sales tax (6.75%) on EV cars.

If the car costs 50k, that's close to 14k in incentives.

Old 04-08-24 | 04:25 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by LexusForever
7500 federal.

4000 state.
https://chargeup.njcleanenergy.com/

Plus, NJ doesn't charge sales tax (6.75%) on EV cars.

If the car costs 50k, that's close to 14k in incentives.
Thats unique to NJ, buyers in other states don't have that sort of credit available. The $7,500 tax credit is only on a very limited number of vehicles now and it bound by vehicle price and by income.

I'm considering an EV right now and there are zero tax incentives available for me, the vehicle is too expensive and even if it weren't my income is too high.
Old 04-08-24 | 04:29 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS
Thats unique to NJ, buyers in other states don't have that sort of credit available. The $7,500 tax credit is only on a very limited number of vehicles now and it bound by vehicle price and by income.

I'm considering an EV right now and there are zero tax incentives available for me, the vehicle is too expensive and even if it weren't my income is too high.
In my original post, I mentioned certain states incentives are driving folks to go EV.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...l#post11702622

Old 04-08-24 | 04:30 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by LexusForever
In my original post, I mentioned certain states incentives are driving folks to go EV.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...l#post11702622
You made a statement that people could only afford them because of the incentives and thats just not true. Most buyers don't have and have never had that level of incentives, and over the past few years the amount of incentives available has been dramatically reduced.

The most the majority of buyers can hope to receive in incentives is $7,500, and thats been the case throughout the last few years with the explosive growth of EVs, and the list of vehicles that qualify for that have gotten smaller and smaller.
Old 04-08-24 | 04:32 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS
You made a statement that people could only afford them because of the incentives and thats just not true. Most buyers don't have that level of incentives, and over the past few years the amount of incentives available has been dramatically reduced.
Incorrect. I said plenty of people, that isnt all.
Old 04-08-24 | 04:54 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by peteharvey
Sales of hybrids magnificent.
All going to TMC's plans.

TMC's plan is to use gasoline-electric hybrids only as an intermediate "stop-gap" before mainstream EV's flood the market.
Like bitkahuna says, lithium ion powered EV's will only go so far to meet niche market early adopter needs, and lithium ion powered EV's are not meeting the needs of the mainstream market.

TMC never planned for lithium ion powered EV's to be a hit in the mainstream market.
However, TMC is the biggest investor in alternative battery chemistry especially solid-state battery patents!


Btw, only a state like California invests in massive hydrogen infrastructure.
Few other governments bother to invest in very expensive hydrogen infrastructure.

Furthermore, hydrogen in HFCEV's is very inefficient.
In the chart below, EV's have lost 31% energy efficiency.
While HFCEV's have lost between 77-81% of its energy efficiency!





NB
I see a few videos about Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines HICEV's being better than both HFCEV's and EV's.

However, the truth is that not only must hydrogen be produced by non-fossil fuel means, plus mass storage and transportation infrastructure like HFCEV's above, but hydrogen chemistry stores very little energy per unit volume, hence motor vehicles would end up with "massive fuel tank" sizes, and this is not practical.
Hydrogen has similar energy per unit weight to gasoline, but hydrogen has very poor energy per unit volume!

Furthermore, since air is 80% nitrogen, the nitrogen reacts with hydrogen and oxygen to produce toxic nitric oxides NO's which means that hydrogen internal combustion engines HICEV's are no longer true zero emission vehicles.


https://youtu.be/vJjKwSF9gT8?si=EQzU6N2pQlJtjcZ4
He mentions the H2 stored in a solid such as a metal instead of a gas to save volume.

But then dismisses it because the energy loss to then separate the H2 from the solid- but this is where the gains in research will be.

Reason why is because the bond will be ionic and the solid should be a salt and further advancements in a catalyst for the reaction will make bulky tanks not needed anymore because the energy to pull the H2 from the salt will be miniscule and the salt will be a solid.

The H2 combustion is a dead end.

The fuel cell with raw electric output should be the goal(and probably is).

I suspect the H2 combustion was only supposed to be a stop gap, similar to batteries.

Just my theories and ideas so don't shoot me. Lol
​​​

Old 04-08-24 | 05:14 PM
  #130  
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H2 is essentially a battery because the gas does not exist naturally in any meaningful quantity.* By volume hydrogen is 0.000055% of our atmosphere the rest is trapped in a molecular bond.

* I know hydrogen is the most abundant thing in the universe this is meaningless. There are asteroids out there that contain 100's of tons of gold just as useless, existing doesn't mean available.
Old 04-08-24 | 05:35 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by LeX2K
I'll put it a different way. A naturally aspirated Toyota V6 with 270hp will be more reliable than a 270hp turbo 4-cylinder. Especially since Toyota owners are conditioned to being able to neglect maintenance and the car keeps going. You can't do that with a turbo engine long term.
+1

Originally Posted by mmarshall
A turbo is just like anything else in an engine.....the more (and harder) you use it, the more likely it is to wear out or fail. But you don't have to go around constantly boosting the engine...you can use a light foot.
That’s like not having fun in an EV…easier said than done.
Old 04-08-24 | 06:23 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Margate330
The fuel cell with raw electric output should be the goal(and probably is).
​​​
Fuel cell will be the end game and will solve the issue of becoming zero emissions I think batteries have hit their peak IMO as companies are realizing that they are gonna lose a lot of money with the slowdown and softening of EV sales.
The H2 combustion is a dead end.
not if you want to create an experience compared to the boring silence of a EV appliance

Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-08-24 at 06:31 PM.
Old 04-08-24 | 06:27 PM
  #133  
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People have been chasing silence with ICEs forever, finally achieve silence with an EV and now silence is boring!
Old 04-08-24 | 06:34 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS
People have been chasing silence with ICEs forever, finally achieve silence with an EV and now silence is boring!
There are all kinds of different experiences. Quiet is harder to do in an EV than it is in a ICE so it costs the manufacturers more $$ which just means the buyer pays more
Old 04-08-24 | 06:40 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Toys4RJill
There are all kinds of different experiences. Quiet is harder to do in an EV than it is in a ICE so it costs the manufacturers more $$ which just means the buyer pays more
Quiet isn't harder to do in an EV than an ICE, you just have different types of noises a driver hears since there is no engine noise. For me hitting the accelerator and having silent, perfectly smooth power is way better than any engine. There is a very small % of people that are looking for engine noise in their vehicle, and those people are almost all enthusiast buyers and buyers of sporty cars.

Nothing enjoyable about the 4 cyl engine found in most cars, or even V6s. V8s and I6s have nice smooth and linear power and they often feel and sound nice...but even them give me the EV in a daily car.

In our PHEV the drive is much more enjoyable when that V6 stays off.



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