I'll have to admit....the Legacy was not exactly beating a path out the front doors of the showrooms. I've known only one person in the last five years who wanted one....although I have seen a fair number of friends and neighbors with new Outbacks, Foresters.....and, especially, Crosstreks, which go like free beer in my area.

 

I see Crosstreks and Forresters all over the place, but to be honest I didn't even realize they were still making the Legacy sedan.

I own one truck, one CUV/SUV, and one sedan. They each have their place.

 

Hence why they are focusing on those vehicles and not the Legacy

 

Here's another "sedan" issue that has not yet been brought up in this thread. IMHO, no true sedans have been sold in the U.S. for some years now.....they have essentially been four-door coupes, with humpback-whale rooflines, Teeny-Weeny trunk-lids, and (often) bump-your-heads in the back seat.

 

Totally disagree, my sedan is a sedan. These are just design choices...nothing with 4 doors is a coupe.

3 box sedans may be making a comeack, thats actually one thing I really like about the 7 Series is it has a traditional 3 box design that stands out today

 

With a few exceptions like the late-40s fastback Cadillacs and Buicks, the three-box-design is what basically DEFINED a sedan up until the 2000s. Then the Mercedes CLS and VW CC came along and did away with that tradition.....although perhaps (?) the first inkling was earlier than that, with the 1986 Taurus/Sable, which rounded out the lines a little.

 

CLS and VW CC are also sedans. There is no such thing as a 4 door coupe.

 

Agreed. Just fastback sedans

 

This article explains the differences pretty well.

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shoppin...a-4-door-coupe

What Is A 4-Door Coupe?

Dustin Hawley | Feb 23, 2021Vehicles like sedans, convertibles, hatchbacks, SUVs, station wagons, pickup trucks, and vans are all rather distinguishable. But as seemingly straightforward as they may seem, each of these individual car categories draws certain ambiguities. In all its simplicity, a coupe is a two-door car with a fixed roof, an engine compartment, passenger cabin, and trunk space, all separated from one another in a standard three-box form.



In recent years, designers have been creating models that have spurned questions and body-style confusion amongst consumers. Some of these conversations have taken place around vehicles like coupes with rear seats and even four-door coupes. But in theory, isn’t a four-door coupe technically a sedan? The confusion is warranted, but we have put together some information to precisely define what a four-door coupe is and what separates it from the sedan category.

Coupe: A Brief History - Find the best car deals!

A little over a century ago, the Society of Automobile Engineers began recommending the names for different body styles, and the name “coupe” was on the list. The word initially was derived from the French language, hence the coupé alternative. The past principle of the French verb “couper” means “to cut,” so it makes a lot of sense to apply this term to the modern meaning of the word, as a vehicle that is made shorter than standard.

During the 1940s and the 1950s, coupes were easily recognized by their shorter roof area. But by the end of the 1970s, two official standards emerged. Governing bodies began to define the coupe differently. According to the International Standard ISO 3833, the coupe is categorized as a vehicle with two doors. On the other hand, the United States Society of Automotive Engineers J1100 publication does not specify the number of doors at all.

Car manufacturers have taken advantage of this discrepancy, continuing to produce four-door coupes over the past decade and extending the confusion around the “coupe” narrative.

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Characteristics Of A 4-Door Coupe - Find the best car deals!

There are four key features that all 4-seater coupes have in common. Turmoil exists in defining the four-door coupe, and some consumers even compared them to 2 door sedans. Of course, a two-door sedan doesn’t exist. So why are 4-door coupes the exception to the rule per se? Let’s take a look at some specifications of these vehicles and decide for ourselves:

• Four-door coupes have an increased seating capacity, with manufacturers guaranteeing a four-passenger capacity. This isn’t the case with a classic two-door coupe. While many models did offer passenger space in the back, it was often very cramped and wasn’t necessarily designed to accommodate four adult passengers.
• The size of 4-door coupes has also increased significantly. One great example is the BMW M8, which has grown considerably over its predecessors in recent years.
• Four-door coupes are often considerably more expensive than their two-door counterparts.

Pros And Cons Of A 4-Door Coupe - Find the best car deals!

There are numerous benefits and drawbacks of this unique car category.

Pros:

• The impeccable interior and exterior style of many four-door coupes can be quite attractive to consumers.
• Standard engines are often very powerful in comparison with traditional coupes.
• Many four-door coupes can be classified as sports cars based on their performance capabilities.

Cons:

• Four-door coupes are often more expensive than their two-door contemporaries.
• If you are looking for additional options and trim packages, you’ll often have to pay much more.
• The sloped roofline of 4 door coupes is practically a synonym for “less space,” regardless of what marketing experts say. The lower the roofline, the less headroom space for passengers in the back. For those looking for coupe performance in the body of a “sedan,” you may find it. But seeking the roominess and comfort of a sedan in these coupes will likely leave you underwhelmed.

Summary - Find the best car deals!

While there may be some similarities between them, there are still many differences that separate traditional coupes from 4-door varieties. At the end of the day, it’s not the number of doors the vehicle has that gives it the “coupe” title, but rather the specific design, notably, the sleek roof that runs all the way back to the trunk.

The decision on whether or not to purchase a four-door coupe comes down to your budget, your personal preferences, and how often you have passengers in the back of your vehicle.

Related Resources

 

It’s all just marketing speak to try and sell the sexiness of a coupe to people who need 4 doors. No such thing.

Like an SUV coupe with 4 doors? No such thing. It’s an SUV with half the utility removed. Stupid.

 

Also disagree. My 2023:



Has the same roof profile as my 2000 did (this one's not mine, but looks identical to the one I had):



Those are 3 generations and nearly 25 years apart. At 6'4", I have headroom in the back seat of both, and both have a spacious trunk that's easy to get largeish items into.

 

That is true Mike.
There is the classic sedan.
Then the "hardtop".
Hardtop - Wikipedia
The hardtops were pioneered in 1949, and were popularised in the 1960's, and back in the 1990's, both Toyota and Honda had many low roofline hardtop sedans with a sporty touch.

Then the four door coupe.

Steve? Well that is being simplistic.


Camry sales:
1983 52,651 1982-86 V10
1984 93,725
1985 128,143
1986 151,767 1986-92 V20
1987 186,623
1988 225,322
1989 255,252
1990 283,042
1991 262,531 1991-69 XV10
1992 284,751
1993 297,836
1994 319,718
1995 326,632
1996 357,359 1996-02 XV20
1997 394,397
1998 427,308
1999 445,696
2000 422,961
2001 388,512 2001-06 XV30
2002 434,145
2003 413,296
2004 426,990
2005 431,703
2006 448,445 2006-12 XV40
2007 472,808
2008 436,617
2009 356,824
2010 327,553
2011 306,510 2011-17 XV50
2012 404,885
2013 408,484
2014 428,606
2015 429,355
2016 388,616
2017 387,081 2017-27 XV70
2018 343,439
2019 336,978
2020 294,348
2021 313,795
2022 295,201
2023 290,649 2024-31 XV80

I often wonder how much sales decline has been caused by the new low roofline swoopy coupe-like styling?
I wonder if the classic tall spacious 103 cubic feet cabin with 15 cu feet trunk would have had equal decline in sales?

The outgoing Subaru Legacy sedan is a whopping 59" tall with a whopping 105 cubic feet interior cabin, however the Subaru tall wagon version has always been the mainstay, and the tall wagon has always outsold the sedan version for many decades.

 

To my knowledge, neither Honda nor Toyota ever made a single car--and certainly not a 4-door--in the 1990s without B pillars (or even with an attempt to visually minimize them), which is how the hardtop is defined. The only hardtop coupe in recent memory is the Mercedes CL/S-Class coupe.

 

Geko, you know cars very well!
Very true - most Japanese hardtops were "pseudo" hardtops with B-pillars added to alleviate wind noise, water seal, security and structural issues.

Early on, Toyota did make lots of genuine 2-door hardtops, and a few 4-door hardtops without B-pillars.
For example, the 1984-88 Toyota Carina Sedan vs Carina Hardtop JDM below.
Without the B-pillar, notice the seatbelts are suspended from the ceiling?






Below, the 1987-92 Toyota Corona Sedan and Corona EXiV Hardtop with a sporty low swoopy roofine.
It was also a true hardtop with no B-pillar, and the front seats belt suspended from the ceiling.














However, you are precise that most Japanese hardtops had a B-pillar reinforcement.
Below is the 1992-96 Corona/Carina Sedan and sporty low roofline Corona Exiv Hardtop with a B-pillar added!





1992-96 Corona EXiV Hardtop with B-pillar added!





US models.
1986-91 Camry Sedan vs Camry Hardtop vs Lexus ES250 Hardtop.
The hardtop was sold as a more upmarket sporty moiety with lower roofline, smaller interior, and sports suspension.








Bottom line, I just have to wonder if the evolution to sporty "design" of the classic sedan - with a swoopy, low and cramped interior, and often sporty suspension added - has anything to do with declining sedan sales...

 

Love that interior geko!

Huh? There's a bunch for sale now.

My G35, G37 and now IS 500 are all traditional 3 box sedans. What do you consider a "true" sedan? A land yacht Buick from the 70's?