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There is literally only one person in this thread that has questioned whether a "4 door coupe" is really a thing. Everyone else is objecting to your assertion that they are the only type of 4-door car on sale today. This call to authority doesn't address that at all.
There is literally only one person in this thread that has questioned whether a "4 door coupe" is really a thing. Everyone else is objecting to your assertion that they are the only type of 4-door car on sale today. This call to authority doesn't address that at all.
Actually, I did not say that. In fact, many four-door vehicles are NOT coupes....look no further than many of today's pickups.
But 4-door coupes, as pointed out in the article, DO exist....in modern years, they generally started with the Mercedes CLS and VW CC.
Actually, I did not say that. In fact, many four-door vehicles are NOT coupes....look no further than many of today's pickups.
I specifically said "4-door car". Not truck. Not SUV. Not sno-cat. Car.
And you absolutely did say that. Here are your words:
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Here's another "sedan" issue that has not yet been brought up in this thread. IMHO, no true sedans have been sold in the U.S. for some years now.....they have essentially been four-door coupes, with humpback-whale rooflines, Teeny-Weeny trunk-lids, and (often) bump-your-heads in the back seat.
Proving that 4 door coupes exist (which most of us, myself included, never disputed) does nothing to support your claim in the above quote that there are no sedans because they've all become coupes.
Four door coupes exist
But I still don't like it. Lol 🤓
I agree. IMHO, we have all argued this enough.
To anyone who DOES like the Legacy, get one now while you can. Although it does not have the ground clearance and easy ingress/egress of the Outback, it is still a good car, and has the same AWD system.
Four door coupes exist
But I still don't like it. Lol 🤓
I am with you.
I am okay with 4 door gran coupes, as long as they continue to make the mainstream conventional sedan alternative.
I don't like them lowering & stiffening mainstream Camry, 7ES and 5LS - and blaming decline in sedans sales due to the sedan body configuration.
4-door coupes normally impractical and don't sell well.
Lexus 3GS was exception to the rule; including its very soft ride.
4GS was firmed up and less sound insulation, and it took the midlife refresh to partially reinstate the soft ride and sound insulation.
After only 5 years and 5 months on the market, the E Class based Benz CLS was axed last year on August 31st at the debut of new E Class.
However, strangely the more sporty AMG GT 5-door based on the same platform as the old CLS - is still in production.
Presently, I own both 3GS and 4GS.
IMO, our 3GS' are 4 door coupes or gran coupes.
Why?
Notice how old 2GS had 100 cu ft passenger and 15 cu ft cargo? Had a lot of rear legroom.
Lexus L-Finesse inspired 3GS had low roof line with swoopy curves diminished to only 98 cu ft passenger and 13 cu ft trunk.
Tall boxy 4GS restores to 99 cu ft passenger and 14 cu ft trunk, but if I'm not wrong, the thick air con seats and large deep seat bases, plus thicker doors for upgraded side collision resistance - ensure that 4GS cannot match 2GS for interior space.
This is how Toyota Motor Corp really sees it.
Below is the 1991-95 Toyota Crown sedan with a tall upright interior @ 56.7" and soft suspension, sold exclusively in the Japanese Domestic Market JDM RHD, and Chinese LHD market.
Based on the same chassis, below is the 1991-97 Toyota Aristo nee Lexus GS300 with a lower swoopier roofline at only 55.1-55.9" tall, firmer suspension and more upmarket.
1995-01 Toyota Crown as the more luxurious sedan.
1997-05 Toyota Aristo nee Lexus 2GS.
1999-03 Toyota Crown with no sporting-luxury Toyota Aristo nee Lexus GS sister.
2003-08 Toyota Crown luxury @ 57.9" tall.
2005-11 Lexus GS sporting-luxury 4-door gran coupe @ 56.1-56.5" tall based on the same platform as the Toyota Crown above, with a diminished 98 cu ft passenger compartment, and a diminished 13 cu ft trunk!
2008-12 Toyota Crown S200 based on the New Toyota N platform and 57.9" tall.
2012-18 Toyota Crown 58.9" tall luxury sedan.
2012-20 Lexus 4GS sporting-luxury @ 57.3" tall with firm suspension, based on the same New N platform.
In other words, Toyota Motor Corp have their Toyota Crowns as the regular tall upright spacious soft riding sedans.
While the Lexus GS are lower roofline, sometimes swoopy and soft riding like your 3GS, but normally firmer riding and always a little more upmarket - ie the 4-door gran coupe that Mike is referring to.
And here is the issue that Mike is referring to.
Previously, Toyota Motor Corp had a line of BOTH tall upright Crown sedans, against sporting luxury Lexus GS's.
Now, TMC ONLY sell Toyota Crowns, and they are all lower, more cramped, and sportier than ever, with small fastback-like trunk openings.
Don't be fooled by the longer wheelbases.
The longer wheelbases are used to nestle the engine behind the front axle for sportier more near 50:50 weight distribution.
You will find 5LS's, despite longer wheelbases, have less legroom than ever!
2018-22 Crown no longer 58.9" tall, but only 57.3" tall.
Fastback-like with a small trunk opening like old Lexus 3GS.
Notice how sporty it looks?
I would not hold my breath for a soft ride...
2023-onwards Toyota Crown sedan, even more fastback-like with a tiny trunk opening.
Look at how low profile the tires are?
I would not expect anything too practical nor comfortable...
Sales of Toyota Crown sedans have plummeted, so I suspect consumers are not interested in low roofline, cramped interior, tiny trunk opening, sporting suspension sedans.
Hence, possibly why a big move to high riding SUV wagon tailgates.
I think you guys just have to accept that vehicle design like everything else goes through trends and fashion. Those cars look like what they are…30 year old cars…
The "four-door coupe" moniker is less of a descriptor of a car and more of a categorization aimed at different audiences than your typical executive sedan (read: business fleet) buyer. The theory is that a CLS buyer and E-Class buyer are not the same, the CLS is for the retiree who wants a coupe, while the E is for a middle manager at some firm. The Germans cover every niche in order to draw the biggest consumer base possible even if the cars overlap in what they do. Ironically Toyota did the exact same thing with the old Crown sedan, like the Crown Comfort and Crown Majesta. It's all marketing.
And here is the issue that Mike is referring to.
Previously, Toyota Motor Corp had a line of BOTH tall upright Crown sedans, against sporting luxury Lexus GS's.
Now, TMC ONLY sell Toyota Crowns, and they are all lower, more cramped, and sportier than ever, with small fastback-like trunk openings.
Don't be fooled by the longer wheelbases.
The longer wheelbases are used to nestle the engine behind the front axle for sportier more near 50:50 weight distribution.
You will find 5LS's, despite longer wheelbases, have less legroom than ever!
2018-22 Crown no longer 58.9" tall, but only 57.3" tall.
Fastback-like with a small trunk opening like old Lexus 3GS.
Notice how sporty it looks?
I would not hold my breath for a soft ride...
2023-onwards Toyota Crown sedan, even more fastback-like with a tiny trunk opening.
Look at how low profile the tires are?
I would not expect anything too practical nor comfortable...
Sales of Toyota Crown sedans have plummeted, so I suspect consumers are not interested in low roofline, cramped interior, tiny trunk opening, sporting suspension sedans.
Hence, possibly why a big move to high riding SUV wagon tailgates.
Excellent points, pete. I agree with virtually all of them...and the numbers do tell the story.
One of the reasons (but not the only one) that crossovers are so popular today is they provide the higher roofline and more interior headroom that sedans used to, but don't any more.
05-02-24, 09:25 AM
