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The GS died because it was not profitable for Lexus. There was just too much quality going into it for the price point.
The inception of it wasn’t done by bean counters.
The money or "quality" was misplaced in the sense that people who want quality and luxury will buy an LS as the sales numbers showed.......they also show the GS did the best when it was an actually valid alternative to a 5 series.
The GS died because it was not profitable for Lexus. There was just too much quality going into it for the price point.
The inception of it wasn’t done by bean counters.
It died because it was stuck in the RWD Lexus sedan line-up between the IS and LS... and not many buyers wanted it. I don't always agree with this policy myself, but, in the auto industry, in general, what doesn't sell enough to satisfy the marketers gets dropped.
The money or "quality" was misplaced in the sense that people who want quality and luxury will buy an LS as the sales numbers showed.......they also show the GS did the best when it was an actually valid alternative to a 5 series.
Except that the 4GS compared extremely well to the 5 Series, even beat it in a comparison test when it came out yet was the worst selling generation.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
It died because it was stuck in the RWD Lexus sedan line-up between the IS and LS... and not many buyers wanted it. I don't always agree with this policy myself, but, in the auto industry, in general, what doesn't sell enough to satisfy the marketers gets dropped.
Except that the 4GS compared extremely well to the 5 Series, even beat it in a comparison test when it came out yet was the worst selling generation.
It's also no coincidence that the 2013 ES which came out at the same time as the 4GS was also enlarged to Avalon size for the first time. That killed any chance the GS had of swaying ES customers like before.
It's also no coincidence that the 2013 ES which came out at the same time as the 4GS was also enlarged to Avalon size for the first time. That killed any chance the GS had of swaying ES customers like before.
i have no idea what all the pics of old sedans is about, but 4 door coupes (i think) began with the mercedes cls. a marketing 'trick' to make buyers think they can have it all, and was pretty successful.
not much different than bmw not using 'suv' but 'sav' (sports activity vehicle) and later 'gran coupé' for their fastback sedans. regardless of names and marketing tricks though, they're sedans. coupes are generally thought of as 2 door vehicles. pretty simple.
as for sedan 'demise' it's pretty simple too... more people like suvs and cuvs - they fit better for the majority with modern life.
If i had children, needed more cargo capacity, or had mobility issues making it hard to get in and out of a sedan, I'd definitely be in a crossover instead, at least out of necessity if not preference. I think most car buyers fall under one or more of those criteria.
I'm lucky that my truck can cover passenger space and cargo needs when i need it to, allowing me to have a sedan or even coupe if I so choose.
One reason (although it is not the only one) that sedans are going is that, years ago, their wagon versions disappeared from the American market, mostly due to the rise of minivans, and SUVs, to a large extent, replaced minivans, particularly with those who wanted a taller ride height, more ground clearance, and AWD for bad weather. Those who used their big, full-frame, V8-powered American sedans and wagons for big American families and towing/vacations now use Ford Expeditions and Chevy Tahoe/Suburbans. Added to that was the fact that sedans and wagons themselves became smaller, converted to FWD, used smaller engines, and got unitized bodies less capable of towing or carrying large families. So, it's not necessarily the fact that people said one thing and did another....it was more the fact that what they wanted in the past simply disappeared from the market, which originally started when vehicles were downsized in the late 1970s because of CAFE rules.
In my particular case, though, I shifted from a larger sedan to a small crossover more by need than by choice. My body was aging and needed seat height easier to get in and out of, my driving needs were dictating something small, maneuverable and easy to park, something with a 360-camera, something with AWD although we don't get that much snow where I live, something with Buick comfort, and something simply more versatile. The Encore GX was a Godsend.
Of course, this is why cross overs make more sense
Originally Posted by mmarshall
I still see some officers grumbling today....although, as you say, many have retired.
Dropping the Legacy, which is American-built in Lafayette, IN, with American labor, will free up some factory capacity for other hot-selling Subaru products.
I don’t get your obsession with American labor. You bought a Korean Buick made with Korean labor.
We went to look at cars today. Stopped at Subaru. They had one Legacy in stock. I absolutely love the car, love the size, styling and really like the dash. Materials are great. The quality is fantastic for what it is. The car is kinda like a hidden gem. Full-time awd sweetens the pot. I also think it uses the WRX motor. That said, it makes absolutely no sense for the vast majority of buyers to want to buy the Legacy over an Outback or a larger crossover Subaru offers. further, the lack of hybrid and high MPG efficiency is a drawback when the new Camry has a 50MPG rating. Discontinuing this model is a simple business case
I had a look into this sedan sales decline business, and it is quite complex.
(1)
Sure, population rises, land stays the same or even shrinks slightly with global warming and melting of the ice caps, with rise in water level, hence less land, higher population densities, hence acreage living largely gone, and even suburban living largely down, to be replaced by both medium density town homes, and hi density high rises.
In the same way, motor vehicles no longer the long wide Yank Tanks of the 70's in Mike's heydays, but now more space efficient high riding wagons like RAV4 which sold 434k last year from its record of 448k in 2019 pre-pandemic.
(2)
We must be careful of multiple body style variations like ES FWD-based/GS RWD-based duo.
Hence, we can't just say that GS sells less than E Class and 5 Series; it is more complex than that due to ES.
Hence, both ES FWD and GS RWD-based sales must be taken into consideration.
(2b)
On a side note, IMO it costs relatively little to produce both ES and GS, because ES is just a variation of Camry, while GS is just a variation of the JDM Toyota Crown!
Just different sheet metal, different alloy wheels, different interior plastic trims, and different spring/damper/roll bar rates.
(3)
Next comes sporting body style variations like hardtops & 4-door gran coupes.
bitkahuna says he does not understand what pics of old sedans is about, and that the 4-door coupes began with 2004 Benz CLS?
Arguably, the sporty sedan bodystyle variations began as early as 1949 with GM's "hardtops" - a sporty body style variation, with no B-pillar, and frameless windows, which was popularised in the 1960's.
The Japanese began copying in the 1970's and were popularized in the 80's/90'.
The pics of old sedans in the posts above referred to Japanese sporting hardtop variations, with lowered rooflines, lowered waistlines, lowered seating positions, and cramped interiors - which Steve 17LS detests!
To bitkahuna's credit, in recent times aka 2004, Benz used the CLS to make a "comeback" or resurgence with sporty body style variations via 4-door Gran Coupes.
Sporting body style variations of mainstream sedans are often: swoopier, lower roofline, lower waistline, lower ground clearance, lower seating position, raked seat bases and more reclined back rests - with more cramped interiors. Less practical, but more sporty bodystyle!
It also includes using more of the wheelbase length the nestle the engine behind the front axle for a closer 50/50 weight distribution - at the expense of cabin length - eg Steve's not so favorite Lexus 5LS.
The sporting variants often use firmer suspension, and rubber band tires, for more dynamics at the expense of both comfort and quietness.
As a result, these sporty model variations cause a fall in mainstream sedan sales if the mainstream sedan itself takes on the sporty configuration like 2017-24 Camry & Lexus 5LS!
Hence, both the mainstream sedan, and the sporty 4-door gran coupe variation sales must be considered together.
(3b)
Eg.
Likewise, from 2004-23, Benz added the CLS sporting body style variation based on E Class, and the CLS sold as much as 20k/year USA.
I'm only average height, but my head used to hit the 1st generation CLS's ceiling, and furthermore, the original CLS in 2004-07 only had 4-seatbelts.
From 2018 onwards, Benz had another sporty variation of the old 2016-23 W213 E Class mainstream sedan called the AMG GT 4-door, and even though it is actually a 5-door liftback as seen in the photo below.
The AMG GT 4-door only sells a few thousand a year in the USA at best.
BMW had a similar 6 Series sporty 4-door gran coupe in 2011-18 calendar years, replaced by an 8 Series 4-door gran coupe from calendar 2018 onwards - both based on 5 Series platforms as Geko attests.
The 6 Series can add well over 20k/year to sales figures USA!
Though changing the name to 8 Series can raise a few eyebrows, as this vehicle is smaller with a cheaper entry price than the 7 Series sedan.
Likewise, Audi has A4 sedan and A5 fastback, with A6 sedan and A7 fastbacks.
(3c)
It is fair enough for Benz to do E Class sedan, and CLS/AMG GT 4-door.
Fair enough for BMW to do 3 Series sedan and 4 Series 4-door Gran Coupes.
Fair enough for BMW to do 5 Series sedan with 6/8 Series 4-door Gran Coupes.
Fair enough for Audi to do A4 sedan and A5 fastback, with A6 sedan and A7 fastback.
However, the mainstream old 2011-17 Camry upright cabin @ 103 cu ft + 15 cu ft trunk is reduced to 100 cu ft + 13 cu ft in the 2017-24 Camry with lowered roofline etc.
Likewise, the 2017- 5LS is equally lowered with a new front mid-engine configuration which robs cabin length of rear legroom, firm suspension, on rubber band run flat tires - this really cheeses Steve LS off!
Because there is NO longer a mainstream upright spaciousCamry nor 5LS sedan etc, the new lowered albeit sportyCamry and 5LS sedan sales are bound to fall!
If TMC sold 2 different body style variations of the 2017-24 Camry:
1) Mainstream tall upright sedan with 103 cu ft passenger and 15 cu feet trunk on soft suspension.
2) Sporty swoopy low slung variation with firm suspension and rubber band run flat tires.
Then sales of the Camry sedan would be differently affected.
Likewise, if Lexus sold two different body style variations of the 5LS:
1) Mainstream tall upright sedan with a front engine instead of a front mid-engine placement for 105 cu ft interior and soft suspension.
2) Sporty swoopy low slung variation with a front mid-engine placement for near 50/50 weight distribution and firm suspension on run-flat rubber band tires.
Then Steve 17LS and so many other people would be much happier customers.
(4)
The next factor that causes sedan sales to fall is the rise in competition!
The Europeans pioneered the motor vehicle.
The Americans mass produced.
Then the Japanese went in.
Then the Koreans.
Now, the Chinese.
In 2015, Motorola'sbeloved Hyundai Genesis sedan got the formula right with form and function in the luxury midsize market, hence sales blitz past 30k/year USA - robbing ES and especially 4GS sales moreso than 5 Series/E Class sales!
(5) Uncompetitive sedans in a congested market?
In a congested market, there is a lot of competition, with many competing models, hence the sales volume for each model will be low.
If there were fewer competing models, the sales volume for each model would be higher.
Add to this a mediocre product, and sales will be decimated.
In a crowded market with so much competition above, this answers tex2670'squestion as to why the likes of Chevy Malibu / Cruz, Ford Taurus / Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Buick Lucerne / Regal / Verano didn't become too sporty - but sell poorly.
Many GM/Ford sedans, plus Nissan/Mitsubishi/Subaru/Suzuki/Daihatsu/Isuzu products not competitive, hence sell poorly.
(6) Electrification affected sedan sales!
From 2018, many sedan sales fell due to the electrification with the Tesla Model 3 - itself an EV sedan - diminishing the sales volume of traditional ICEV sedans.
Tesla Model 3 sells in tremendous volume, affecting traditional ICEV sedan sales.
Because the Model 3 Sedan was introduced before the Model Y High Riding Wagen, C Class and 3 Series sedan sales were affected compared to X3/X5 and GLC/GLE etc.
(7) Sedan to Tall Wagon Sales Ratios
Musk likes to keep his sales volume a secret for fear of criticism.
However, recent 2022 sales figures of Model 3 sedan to Model Y tall wagon point to about 195k:225k/year USA ie 45:55 split in sedan/tall wagen sales.
These figures could be wong, because I see so many different figures online, with no real time to investigate.
Because Model Y high riding wagen has only been on the market for a few years, this sedan/tall wagen ratio could change.
Summary
Hence overall, there are a lot of factors to consider in the fall in sales of the traditional sedan.
We went to look at cars today. Stopped at Subaru. They had one Legacy in stock. I absolutely love the car, love the size, styling and really like the dash. Materials are great. The quality is fantastic for what it is. The car is kinda like a hidden gem. Full-time awd sweetens the pot. I also think it uses the WRX motor. That said, it makes absolutely no sense for the vast majority of buyers to want to buy the Legacy over an Outback or a larger crossover Subaru offers. further, the lack of hybrid and high MPG efficiency is a drawback when the new Camry has a 50MPG rating. Discontinuing this model is a simple business case
Yes...many people, today, for several reasons, simply want more ground clearance than on low-slung sedans. That's why the Outback outsells the Legacy by a huge margin...it also has a lot more cargo space.
I had an Outback myself...from 2006 to 2012. In general, so far, best winter vehicle I have ever had, although my current Encore GX has been just as good in the few winter storms it has had to cope with...my Legacy got much more of a test, as I was regularly commuting through winter storms. The Buick also has a switch where the driver can disconnect the AWD, when not needed, for less drag on the engine.....something Subarus lack.
I don’t get your obsession with American labor. You bought a Korean Buick made with Korean labor.
I went over that, several times, in the threads I have done on my personal vehicle....and I know you looked at them. I would have clearly preferred American UAW labor, but the Korean-built Encore GX was the closest thing to a perfect vehicle for my needs (still is...I might end up getting a second one), and the Korean Plant was, at least, itself Unionized. South Korea is also a major U.S. ally and trading-partner.
I did not think that the slightly larger Envision and slightly smaller (non-GX) Encore were as well-designed for my preferences, and the fact that the Envision was Chinese-built, with probably much worse labor conditions, was a major turn-off. Without getting too deeply into politics, although it is difficult or impossible for most Americans to avoid buying Chinese-made merchandise these days (just shop at almost any department-chain), I don't think that, for something we DO have more control over, such as how we spend our automotive $$$$, we should be sending them to a country like China that, despite its economic trade, has recently become anything BUT a U.S. ally. I do, however, accept the fact that the Chinese public absolutely LOVES Buicks (can't blame them for that...it is arguably also my favorite nameplate)...so it is not surprising that many Buicks, are in fact, built there. But personally, I am not going to send any of my money to a Chinese auto plant.
So, back to your previous story.....were you looking at Subarus for any particular reason? You are correct that they are generally well-made vehicles.....but the CVTs, like with Nissan, have been troublesome, as some of the non-turbo 2.5L engines.
05-03-24, 07:21 PM
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