General Car Conversation 2024 - part 2
09-18-24, 07:45 AM
#1561
Lexus Champion
550hp from a 3l closed deck 9.3:1 comp ratio motor is anything but impressive - ~180hp/l. The G16E-GTS (GR Yaris / Corolla) does 180hp/l in top trim, with run-of-the-mill-for-modern-turbo-engines 10.4:1 comp. The MB m139 goes above 200hp/l with a 9.0:1 comp ratio - I wonder why it comes with electric assist. Of course, don't ask about efficiency - low comp generally means "top end numbers at the expense of mostly everything else", with the most interesting part being the many clever ways to eliminate lag as much as possible while keeping it emissions-compliant - which aren't nearly as interesting nowadays with all the electrification cheat code... which kinda defeats the point - might as well get a plaid or whatever.
What's impressive is, say, the base B58's comp ratio, power output and delivery.
Really not sure where you got that "1k hp safely out of 3.0l" - certainly not from a street engine.
What's impressive is, say, the base B58's comp ratio, power output and delivery.
Really not sure where you got that "1k hp safely out of 3.0l" - certainly not from a street engine.
What about weight of engine to power ratio? Average power per LB? You know, metrics that actually matter? A engine 100lv heavier than your 350-400lb 4cyl making 2x the power so at the end of the day it's a far more impressive engine.
Oh and once again 1000hp is easy as hell these days on totally unbuilt engines. The B58/S58, N63/S63, EA824/825, EA398, M176/M178, Audi/Lambo V10, Viper, LT1/4, GTR of all variants, etc etc etc ALL can hit 1000 crank without any internal changes with ease. That's just engines off the top of my head so stop with the nonsense that 1000hp isn't a street engine when people offer full warranty setups for just that for the last 10 years
Last edited by Striker223; 09-18-24 at 07:50 AM.
09-18-24, 07:50 AM
#1562
Lexus Champion
Oh here we go......the stupid HP/L argument again. It's what the low output engine owners always use as a cope to explain away why they have 200 HP. So what you have 10hp/L more if you have half the L? You have less power.
What about weight of engine to power ratio? Average power per LB? You know, metrics that actually matter? A engine 100lv heavier than your 350-400lb 4cyl making 2x the power so at the end of the day it's a far more impressive engine.
What about weight of engine to power ratio? Average power per LB? You know, metrics that actually matter? A engine 100lv heavier than your 350-400lb 4cyl making 2x the power so at the end of the day it's a far more impressive engine.
09-18-24, 07:52 AM
#1563
Lexus Champion
My only reliability issue has been the spark plugs die quickly/need changed every 20k
https://youtu.be/AsBSe9gr67E?si=JHWmiwgwlGyUlAzi
That's the same tuner I'm using but I have upgraded downpipes and intakes unlike him who is using OEM parts only. His goal was to prove a point that nothing but Audi made parts allow 9s, I wanted faster spool for agility so I went with better exhaust/intake.
Last edited by Striker223; 09-18-24 at 07:57 AM.
09-18-24, 08:49 AM
#1564
Lexus Test Driver
But, it's working at a low percentage of it's output for normal use.
Work it hard like.towing or racing regularly and that's when "strengths of materials" kicks in for the internal engine components failures.
There a limit to reliable hp per liter and most engines aren't built for more than 100hp/liter, imo.
09-18-24, 09:03 AM
#1565
Lexus Champion
It has to be overbuilt to take that kind of torture.
But, it's working at a low percentage of it's output for normal use.
Work it hard like.towing or racing regularly and that's when "strengths of materials" kicks in for the internal engine components failures.
There a limit to reliable hp per liter and most engines aren't built for more than 100hp/liter, imo.
But, it's working at a low percentage of it's output for normal use.
Work it hard like.towing or racing regularly and that's when "strengths of materials" kicks in for the internal engine components failures.
There a limit to reliable hp per liter and most engines aren't built for more than 100hp/liter, imo.
09-18-24, 09:20 AM
#1566
Oh here we go......the stupid HP/L argument again. It's what the low output engine owners always use as a cope to explain away why they have 200 HP. So what you have 10hp/L more if you have half the L? You have less power.
What about weight of engine to power ratio? Average power per LB? You know, metrics that actually matter? A engine 100lv heavier than your 350-400lb 4cyl making 2x the power so at the end of the day it's a far more impressive engine.
Oh and once again 1000hp is easy as hell these days on totally unbuilt engines. The B58/S58, N63/S63, EA824/825, EA398, M176/M178, Audi/Lambo V10, Viper, LT1/4, GTR of all variants, etc etc etc ALL can hit 1000 crank without any internal changes with ease. That's just engines off the top of my head so stop with the nonsense that 1000hp isn't a street engine when people offer full warranty setups for just that for the last 10 years
What about weight of engine to power ratio? Average power per LB? You know, metrics that actually matter? A engine 100lv heavier than your 350-400lb 4cyl making 2x the power so at the end of the day it's a far more impressive engine.
Oh and once again 1000hp is easy as hell these days on totally unbuilt engines. The B58/S58, N63/S63, EA824/825, EA398, M176/M178, Audi/Lambo V10, Viper, LT1/4, GTR of all variants, etc etc etc ALL can hit 1000 crank without any internal changes with ease. That's just engines off the top of my head so stop with the nonsense that 1000hp isn't a street engine when people offer full warranty setups for just that for the last 10 years
I think you misunderstood the conversation. I wasn't talking about street legal, nor was I talking about efficiency. I was making a point about the 3.5tt in the Tundra being underbuilt. There are many examples of the B58 making nearly 1000 HP safely because it's built with better components. Being street legal and efficiency is a different conversation. They are 100 percent not efficient
As for not talking about street legal / efficiency / whatever:
Yeah, sure. All I see is 550-ish crank, though.
Last edited by Lwerewolf; 09-18-24 at 09:30 AM.
09-18-24, 09:33 AM
#1567
Lexus Champion
Yes I did, and you brought up the most useless measurement of an as installed engine possible. HP/L doesn't matter or cars would all be using 600cc bike engines, what matters most is installed weight vs power output and then physical size for packaging.
It's the like S2000 guys always going "muh NA HP/L beats Ferrari" meanwhile they are missing 2+L kf displacement with and engine that weights all of 50lb less than a F430 scud or 5L off a LS7 that weights nearly the same.
Cool story with the HP/L but it's still a worse power plant rating system, I like looking at average power vs weight since that's the best way to tell how the engine actually performs for its burden on the car.
It's the like S2000 guys always going "muh NA HP/L beats Ferrari" meanwhile they are missing 2+L kf displacement with and engine that weights all of 50lb less than a F430 scud or 5L off a LS7 that weights nearly the same.
Cool story with the HP/L but it's still a worse power plant rating system, I like looking at average power vs weight since that's the best way to tell how the engine actually performs for its burden on the car.
09-18-24, 09:34 AM
#1568
Lexus Champion
Did you honestly even read what I just wrote?
Define safe. Somehow I'm not seeing 1000hp (wheel or whatever) stock internals B58 setups on track. It could be that there's a 1000hp+ that's "safe" for the occasional pull with definitely not pump gas. Most seem to go for around ~500whp. As for the 3.4tt (yup, 3.4) - the bearings issue is enough to write it off.
As for not talking about street legal / efficiency / whatever:
Yeah, sure. All I see is 550-ish crank, though.
Define safe. Somehow I'm not seeing 1000hp (wheel or whatever) stock internals B58 setups on track. It could be that there's a 1000hp+ that's "safe" for the occasional pull with definitely not pump gas. Most seem to go for around ~500whp. As for the 3.4tt (yup, 3.4) - the bearings issue is enough to write it off.
As for not talking about street legal / efficiency / whatever:
Yeah, sure. All I see is 550-ish crank, though.
09-18-24, 09:38 AM
#1569
Lexus Champion
Did you honestly even read what I just wrote?
Define safe. Somehow I'm not seeing 1000hp (wheel or whatever) stock internals B58 setups on track. It could be that there's a 1000hp+ that's "safe" for the occasional pull with definitely not pump gas. Most seem to go for around ~500whp. As for the 3.4tt (yup, 3.4) - the bearings issue is enough to write it off.
As for not talking about street legal / efficiency / whatever:
Yeah, sure. All I see is 550-ish crank, though.
Define safe. Somehow I'm not seeing 1000hp (wheel or whatever) stock internals B58 setups on track. It could be that there's a 1000hp+ that's "safe" for the occasional pull with definitely not pump gas. Most seem to go for around ~500whp. As for the 3.4tt (yup, 3.4) - the bearings issue is enough to write it off.
As for not talking about street legal / efficiency / whatever:
Yeah, sure. All I see is 550-ish crank, though.
09-18-24, 09:52 AM
#1570
Yes I did, and you brought up the most useless measurement of an as installed engine possible. HP/L doesn't matter or cars would all be using 600cc bike engines, what matters most is installed weight vs power output and then physical size for packaging.
It's the like S2000 guys always going "muh NA HP/L beats Ferrari" meanwhile they are missing 2+L kf displacement with and engine that weights all of 50lb less than a F430 scud or 5L off a LS7 that weights nearly the same.
Cool story with the HP/L but it's still a worse power plant rating system, I like looking at average power vs weight since that's the best way to tell how the engine actually performs for its burden on the car.
It's the like S2000 guys always going "muh NA HP/L beats Ferrari" meanwhile they are missing 2+L kf displacement with and engine that weights all of 50lb less than a F430 scud or 5L off a LS7 that weights nearly the same.
Cool story with the HP/L but it's still a worse power plant rating system, I like looking at average power vs weight since that's the best way to tell how the engine actually performs for its burden on the car.
But yes, I'm surely completely unable to google "b58 max stock internals hp".
You really need to brush up on your ego.
09-18-24, 09:54 AM
#1571
Lexus Champion
I couldn't care less how useless of a measurement it is to you or anybody else, since I was replying to this:
...which somehow sounds exactly like a HP/L argument.
Once again:
But yes, I'm surely completely unable to google "b58 max stock internals hp".
You really need to brush up on your ego.
...which somehow sounds exactly like a HP/L argument.
Once again:
But yes, I'm surely completely unable to google "b58 max stock internals hp".
You really need to brush up on your ego.
09-18-24, 10:18 AM
#1572
Lexus Test Driver
The B58 is tortured and put through its paces regularly, and I would say this is an extremely abused engine. There's a reason it's referred to as being "Bulletproof". I'm not suggesting that this engine should be used for towing, I was only using it as an example that a properly built engine with less Liters and cylinders can do the job, it just needs to be built with stronger, thicker components. In the case of the 3.5L tt in the Tundra, it appears that there was some cost cutting
09-18-24, 10:23 AM
#1573
Lexus Test Driver
09-18-24, 10:27 AM
#1574
Lexus Fanatic
Just having a little fun with y’all. Toyota still does racing and builds engines blocks. Le Mans too. Hyundai is about to get into Le Mans. I’m really not sure about BMW or what they race with or where.
09-18-24, 10:33 AM
#1575
Lexus Test Driver