RON430

Amen. After having a Supra with plain ol' analog gauges I was happy to see the new GS sack the Optitron. I may not hate it but this mad rush to improve things that don't need improving, baffles me. Not sure there has ever been anything much better than white numbers on a black background. Lexus isn't stupid, if the Optitron was a big success it would still be there.

And I'll take my steering wheel good sized and entirely in leather, thank you.

GlobeCLK

iTrader: (5)

the next GS300 will beat E320 and 530i in HP, which is good.
the next GS430 doesn't have much improvement in HP but it doesn't suck in anyway. Still in the same ballpark.

I'm somewhat disappointed that Lexus did not improve the HP number in the GS430. It's not that the V8 isn't already fast enough. It's that the car is under major redesign model shift yet they don't even add 1hp.

But I'm sure the next GS will be a strong contender against the E and the 5. Like 1sick said, getting windows to roll down and the radio to work is more important than having more HP. Toyota probably sell 200 times as many Corollas as M5s because it's a reliable little car. The craftsmanship on the Corolla is probably better than the M5 (at least better than the 3 and 5 series)

theanimala

I love my Lexus, but I do believe Lexus is falling behind. Honestly, look at their cars. Yes, Lexus is the #1 selling luxury plate. But they get these sales not in their sedan sales but in their SUV's (namely the RX330). Go through the line, the IS300 is greatly outsold by the Bimmer 3 series (and rightfully so). The ES is outsold by the TL. The GS is outsold by both the Merc E and the BMW 5. The SC430 is outsold by the Merc CLK's. I have to admit I am not sure of the LS430, I think it may hold it's own better then the other cars.

Lexus does make great cars, no doubt about it. But so does the competition. Lexus makes a new model and it does sell well, for 1 year, maybe two. After the initial fanfare, sales generally drop do substandard levels. How can the 3 series still sell so well after all these years without any real upgrades while the IS has dropped off the map? Same thing with our beloved GS. Look how few are sold compared to even last years outdate 5 series. I state this again, if it were not for the truck line Lexus would not be half the size they are now.

I do not think, like others on this board, that Lexus needs to compete with the M5, E55 and RS6. But they need to compete with the standard E320 and 530. Lexus built up so much anticipation, saying the next GS was going to change the company and set a new tone. I see the same tone coming up. The GS will sell well for it's first model year, and then slump back down to third best (in sales, not quality) to it's competition. Seems like standard old Lexus to me...

LexFather

Add ES and IS sales vs TL, since they are the same price.
GS has 2 models, E has 3 sedans, 2 wagons, 5 has 4 sedans, 2 wagons
SC 430 loaded, CLK has 3 models.

XenonES3

YTD 2003 sales (as of September) recorded by autosite.com:

ES3: 47,453
TL: 39,278

The ES has a 21% lead on the TL.

The LS430 is currently just under 400 units behind the S-class.

But I do agree, the GS300, GS430, and IS300 sales are very poor. IS300 sales are down 50% compared to last year. Lexus sells more ES330's in TWO weeks than GS430's all year

mc003

well personally i think lexus is sorta slipping a bit. if you look at what nissan
did to infinity and their lineup, thats pretty amazing from a company in the hole
to one that is starting the trend. it's all about their new upper management. as
for lexus, i personally think they should offer a line of high-end perfomance.
such as AMG and what not. it's not so much for the "SALES" aspects and profit.
but it's more so for the desire and want for it, which will boost up the sales of other
cars in their line. many companies do this. GMC made typhoon/syclone for
status, not for profit so they could prove that they can make a truck which can beat
a corvette. they obviously didn't do it for profit cuz they only made 3000 sy's and
4700 ty's. it just boosts up sales within their other models. makes the
brand more desireable and it's just bragging rights for the company. why else does
M-5 and e55 keep on trying to out-do each other... not for profit. almost everyone
does this, ford lightning, ford cobra, audi s4, rs6, s8, benz, bmw, subaru wrx sti,
mitsubishi evo, chevrolet z06, jag s-typeR, Cadillac CTS V, phaeton w12 just to name
a few. these are just high-end with added performance. lexus would just need one
line, a gs430 w/ a supercharger or turbo. then all lexus owners can say
"the gs430 turbo can take that e55/m5 on" it's not for everyone to BUY one,
but its so everyone can say "lexus can and does make a performance car too." and
for everyone to want a lexus.
anyhow this is my opinion.

as for the new GS style. one reason lexus doesn't dramatically change their design
is because of re-sale value. this is why the ls430 changes only slightly between models.
look at how older benz's sell. the old style always have bad resale value. this is
something lexus does on purpose. the one that they did a huge makeover was the SC.

also, btw i heard rumors that lexus is going to start a high-end line to compete against
"S" class and more. suppose to have a v12 or something. maybe even compete
against the maybach. rumors of course.

Gojirra99

Lexus sedans are doing fine in sales against any of the competitors in the entry level lux and premium lux segments despite having much fewer model choices. It's in the mid-size lux (GS) that they are lagging badly against the 5 series and E class. I had high hopes for new GS to have a killer design and features to help Lexus gain significant grounds in sales in this segment, but looking at the new car, while it can compete well with the others, it looks like it won't be good enough to win many new customers from other brands to make it one of the sales leader in this segment. I also doubt they will have a high performance line of cars like M and AMG. However, they will probably have hybrid versions of Lexus sedans in the future that are powerful but still have good fuel economy. They are the leader right now in hybrid technology.

As for Europe, it's not a level playing field for Lexus as it is in North America, where Japanese & German luxury cars are both imports. Lexus are much more expensive in Europe, while the Benz 's & Bimmers are relatively cheap as compared to they are here, not to mention their much longer heritage. In many European countries, Lexus still doesn't have a well established dealership network, some are still sold in Toyota dealerships. They may have to start manufacturing Lexus in Europe in the future before they can gain significant grounds in the luxury market there.

mc003

on that note of the GS... it's sad the new model isn't jaw dropping.
i mean if they did it right, they really could have turned lexus around.

look at what the TL did for acura... totally a new perspective on them now...
right when people were starting to lose faith in them.

just like nissan... first altima and x-tera... then redo their whole line-up.
totally changes the company and gives them a re-birth. now look at what
infinity is showing... IMHO, infinity cars are more appealing than new lexus
designs (GS and SC.) you didn't hear a lot of people saying... "i want that
SC" but i'm hearing everyone wanting the new TL. i'm guessing the new
GS will get about the same enthusiasm as the SC got.

doug_999

While I have not seen the sales breakdown for EOY 2003, something tells me that Lexus car sales were down this year and their truck sales were way up. I'm pretty sure the TL will beat the ES in the sales race now that the new one is out and I know GS sales are in the tank. But their RX330 had sales of almost 100,000 and the new GX just added to the truck total. Neither the X5 or ML sell in that range. My point is that I'll bet Lexus lost the sales race in terms of cars. Obviously in combined cars/trucks they won.

I wonder which they make more money off of?

J.P.

Maybe Lexus has just faced what the other companies haven’t. You WILL get to the point to where you cannot make the car any faster. Going from 10 seconds zero to 60 to 8 would be easy, getting from 5.1 to 4.7 or 4.7 to 4.4 isn’t easy without spending major cash which would take these standard 4 door luxury sedans way out of the price range they are in.

EVERYONE will hit this brick wall sooner or later, Lexus is just facing it now. Hopefully with the new 6 speed, your looking at a 5.6-5.7 zero to 60 in your 4 door luxury sedan. The car does not need to be any faster then that.

Gojirra99

The profit margins of SUV's are higher.

BTW, the RX330 is a car not a truck. If it's a car-based platform, it's a car.
Only the GX & LX are truck-based.

LexusPride

Well, says who? I mean, if the car put out 40 more horse, and put the 0-60 down to 5.4 or 5.5, would it actually HURT sales? Would the extra .2 or .3 seconds make some people say "whoa, now that's too fast." I think by just staying even with MB and BMW in this class (sport / luxury ?), reliability alone won't necessarily put them over the top, if sales figures are any indication. And since a large percentage of members on this board are diehard fans and this still doesn't cause any real uproar of positive emotion, what is the incentive to plunk down between $40-and 60k for a vehicle that isn't all that much nicer or faster, eight years later? This is the evolution we had to wait for?

J.P.

For a daily driver, I have never been big on the HP crap, once in a while a piece of me will want a M5 or Rs6, then reality sets in and says yeah I am in stop and go traffic right now, what a waste it would be. I want a sports car or project car one day with a ton o HP, but for a daily driver why does a car need to be any faster then 5.6-7 zero to 60?

I am looking at this from a business perspective, I don’t see the average GS buyer really caring about the HP. The car has plenty of power for the sports\luxury enthusiasts. Yeah this forum has a ton of enthusiasts, but in the real world I see older people driving these cars who can car less about HP, mods and never even heard of Club Lexus.

I have maybe once or twice come across someone young at the Lexus dealer, and if they were they were looking at Is300’s or used GS’s etc. The group of people buying these cars new can really care less if this thing came with 300hp or 345hp, that extra 45hp wouldn’t keep them from buying the car.


"Well, says who? I mean, if the car put out 40 more horse, and put the 0-60 down to 5.4 or 5.5, would it actually HURT sales? "


My main point is, say they did that and added another 45hp. Then what next time? You would still want another 20-30hp? Then the next time you want another 30-40hp, you’re always going to be wanting. It will get to a point where they cannot add more HP or get the zero to 60 times down anymore without it being costly; they see a nice balance in their car now and their going to roll with it. They have a solid engine with the 430, if anything they are going to work on better gas mileage and emissions, not adding 45 more hp that will suck up more gas.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

lexus is slipping...

lexus is falling behind...

lexus needs to turn it around...

You guys have it all wrong. Sure the 2nd gen GS sales have been slipping, it was launched in 97! The IS not beating 3 series in sales? Get a clue, BMW has had 30+ years head start. The LS does very well. The ES does very well. The new GS will do well. The SUVs are flying out of dealerships.

Man you guys are sooo negative.

Letsride

I agree!!