doug_999

Can ya back this up with data? I'm curious where you got your numbers from.

Come on KVA, because the automaker says it is sporty it is sporty? Per this, the LS430 is actually sporty - because it does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. Even better, the LS430 has a sports package! Trust me, the LS430 is not sporty and neither is the stock GS.

And don't get me started on the ETCS-i - I can point you to plenty of threads on CL that point out what an annoyance this is. Talk about delayed throttle response. The way the ETCS-I is implemented on the GS430 actually makes the throttle LESS responsive.

Rominl - I drove a 2003 Acura TL Type S with 260 and there was no torque steer whatsoever. True that I have not driven the 2004. re: C&D being bimmer biased - I don't think that is true. They are drivers car biased (note the driver in their name). BMWs tend to be driver's cars - oh and so do Acuras See their review of the 2004 5-series if you think they are bimmer biased.

KVA

You were simply stating that it is not...while the auto manufacturer states that it is...who should I believe? You? Intresting.

Is 0-60 speed really an indication of sportiness? If so, what is the threshold that determines this? How can we as uneducated consumers determine what cars are sporty or not? Does it have to have two seats, specific 0-60 time, 1/4 mile time, special tire package, etc...? And remember...I am not categorizing the GS as a sports car but rather just sporty. I am interested in the methodology for determining sporty.

I for one believe the GS is sporty, at least as much as the TL

As for other issues like ETCS-i, I agree that there are issues with it in the 430...but does that alone change it's status from sporty to unsporty?

Does the understeer issues with the TL change it's status as well?

doug_999

Interesting KVA, I just looked at your signature -you have a GS300 SportDesign. I can now understand your confusion. While I have never driven a GS300 SportDesign, I can only imagine it is somewhat sporty. You should drive a stock GS430 or a stock GS300, I think you would be surprised - the car is a boat.

KVA

To each his own...

KVA

After reading other comments by you (Doug_999) I would have to say that you are definitly having an issue with your GS430. If I was in your shoes I would contact Lexus NA directly to resolve the problems you are having. It is sad to hear that you got a lemon...I would go after them hard. You may be surprised as to the feedback you get from Lexus (and I am not talking the dealership). Good luck!

jime

Looking from the other side – I just can’t resist this one.

You call it prestige and I call it paying for a “name”, and I think I can get a lot more for my money in an Acura.

When I purchased my 90 Integra 5-speed coupe, the only real competition was a Celica GT and I thought it was way overpriced. I drove my Integra for 6 years/115K miles and just had the radio antenna go bad.

I chose a 95 Legend 6-speed coupe over a SC-300 (SC-400 was automatic only), because the two cars were very similar and the Legend not only had a much better frequency of repair record, but I could also get it for about 25% less money. Lexus dealers weren’t dealing, but the Acura dealer gave me a great price. Yes the SC was more attractive, but not $10,000 more. And the Legend was a wonderful car for 8 years and 142K miles with ZERO problems.

I chose the 04 TL 6-speed over the Infinite G35 because of the great interior and all the features including voice/touch nav, voice “hands free” (Bluetooth) telephone, heated seats & mirrors, XM radio, parking assist rear view mirrors, dual automatic temp controls, etc. Why didn’t I consider the Lexus ES/GS series, because Lexus doesn’t make a manual transmission except in the IS and the IS is too small for my tastes. Besides, I don’t like paying for the Lexus name.

I love my RL and got it for a fantastic price, and thanks to “Car and Driver” and all of you who say a large luxury sedan has to have an 8 cylinder engine. $24K for a 2 year old large luxury sedan with 31K miles - now that is value! It is a wonderful road car and although it won’t go 0-60 in 6 seconds (I think it takes about 7.5), I don’t try to race with it very often.

So you ask – why the RX300. Because my wife always wanted a Lexus. You know, the name and everything. It is a nice vehicle, but I am not an SUV fan. And about a week after we got the car she said that she thought we should have gotten the MDX. Now, isn’t that just like a woman.

doug_999

Thanks KVA - I'm working on that now. But please don't think that my comments on this thread are influenced by the issues I've had with my GS430. Even if it didn't have any issues, I still would not think it was sporty and I still would think it drove like a luxury car not a sports car. Remember, I came from owning two BMWs prior to this, so my definition of sporty might be different than yours.

SecPole14

I'm going to stop short of saying that you are creating flame bait. You can't have it all, not at the GS price range, anyway. Choose: Either sport (BMW) or quality/luxury (Lexus). You can't whine about one not having the qualities of the other. They are two completely different cars. Maybe you should spend more time test driving cars before you buy them.

I am very sorry that your Lexus is not up to your expectations. If there are mechanical/quality problems with the vehicle, then Lexus is to blame. If you don't like the way your car drives, then it's your fault for buying it.

LexFather

Acura=value. Value=cheap, not luxury. Period. True value is offering the same features as the competition for less (like when the original LS 400 was 35k and the E 420 was 50k). That is a value. Selling me a lesser product and calling it value is cheap.
QUOTE]You call it prestige and I call it paying for a “name”, and I think I can get a lot more for my money in an Acura.[/QUOTE]
Acura does real well of avoiding one on one competion and calling it value. They play a nice game and they sell pretty well. But outside the NSX (which sells slow as molasses) all of Acura's cars are basically sub-40k cars. This is called the entry-level luxury market, not the luxury market.

Therefore, Acura is an entry-level luxury car company, not a luxury car company.

doug_999

Bring it on back to the thread topic please. I've not complained about my GS in this thread. I have countered KVA's claims that the car is of a sporty nature. This thread is about Acura cars. I simply pointed out (several times) that I believe Acura has a different focus than Lexus and this doesn't make them a bad car manufacturer. Acura's focus is more on sport than luxury, Lexus is more on Luxury than sport and my point there was that Lexus only makes one sporty car - the IS - not the IS & GS. Where you saw whining I'm not sure. But hey, thanks for your constructive thoughts.

altaf

The once and future king... but It's been all downhill since (NSX being the exception). Acura needs to revert back to whatever they were doing in the early to mid 90's. And now they have some major transmission issues... what a disappointment.

SecPole14

Wow, it's sad to see how far they fallen...They should bring back that body style. Gorgeous.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

Acura does real well of avoiding one on one competion and calling it value. They play a nice game and they sell pretty well. But outside the NSX (which sells slow as molasses) all of Acura's cars are basically sub-40k cars. This is called the entry-level luxury market, not the luxury market.

Therefore, Acura is an entry-level luxury car company, not a luxury car company. [/QUOTE]

exactly what i am trying to say

ultraseven

Acura doesn't have the recognition of Lexus even they entered the luxury car market earlier, around 1986. The reasons are what I believe to be the following:

-No V8
-Mainly FWD cars in their lineup
-Having a sub 30K car in their lineup (RSX + TSX)

Please note that I am not suggesting that the RSX/TSX are bad cars. They are quite the opposite, but to establish a luxury brand image the cars need to possess certain virtues: flair, power, and luxury. with a touch of performance.

The reason Lexus is successful is mainly due to their impressive launch with the original LS400 followed by quality, well-engineered cars. While they aren't performers, they offer what most luxury car buyers want. Are they fast? The GS and the new LS certainly are with sub 6 seconds 0-60 times, but it is not the sole measure of a sports car. They are quiet, smooth, luxurious, reliable, but won't break records on an auto cross. This is a winning formula in the luxury car market. BMW tends to offer a bit more "sport" in their lineup with some sacrifice of luxury, and that has bode well in a younger crowd. Are all their cars faster than Lexus/Infiniti/Acura/MB? No, but the company has managed to create their image and preserve it mainly with the M series. I see MB mainly between he two brands, but with a higher emphasis on flair. (only exception here is the C coupe - which is really a poor man's benz)

Then one would ask, what's wrong with Infiniti? Not many since the introduction of the G35 and the FX, but having a G20 in their lineup earlier really didn't improve their image. The I is a front drive similiar in concept to the ES in the fact they share another front drive platform, but the ES is more successful because it is quieter and more luxurious. The original Q was a pretty impressive car, and the recent introductions of the G35/FX lineups bode well for the company.

While the new TL is a great car, it is not going to establish a luxury brand image. The company needs a new rear drive, V8 flagship and a brand new NSX (coming soon).

LexFather

3 posts and I like this guy already. Welcome to Clublexus.