Acura - What's wrong??
01-16-04, 06:17 PM
#47
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I'm seeing more and more new TL's on the road and that is a SWEET looking car. Too bad it's FWD. It could be a killer if RWD or AWD.
01-16-04, 11:14 PM
#48
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Here's a snipet from Toyota executives on how Lexus achieved their success, something Acura should study over and over again (damn still can't believe they didn't learn from the Cadillac FWD fiasco - shame on their marketing / engineer folks)! Start with the service and appreciation of the customer (acura service is slightly better than normal honduh dealerships), then figure out the engineering later!
BEGINNER'S LUXURY
Introduced to the American market in 1989, the Lexus marked a Japanese manufacturer's first foray into the import luxury-automobile battleground then dominated by such Teutonic titans as Mercedes and BMW. Predictably, critics reacted to the news with a mixture of ridicule and disbelief. Sure, the Japanese could build perfectly serviceable economy cars, the thinking went, but luxury?
Not only did Toyota build a luxury car to compete with the best Germany had to offer, but the Lexus in fact redefined the concept by setting a new standard for both European and American automakers to match - or be left in the dust. But as Clements emphasizes, what truly made Lexus different wasn't the comfier seats, better handling or features no one had ever thought to put in a car before. The difference, he explains, was in the service.
"The LS400 was a phenomenal success for the first four or five months," Clements says. "One of the articles said that the Lexus had gone 'from a question mark to a benchmark.' That helped dispel the notion that the Japanese couldn't build a genuine luxury car and luxury channel. But then we ran into a quality problem - our first recall. At that time the people here elected to do something that no one else had ever done before. They had a massive recall, went out and picked up every customer's car, made the repair, washed every car and then gave every owner a gift. Nobody had ever done that before - taken a recall and turned it into an opportunity to build customer loyalty. And what it did was give our dealers a level of authenticity - it showed that we were for real, that we meant it when we said we are all about a superb customer experience. So out of that initial adversity, we were very fortunate."
DISCRETION: THE BETTER PART OF VALUE
The goal at Lexus, says Clements, is not simply to offer good customer service, a concept so bland that it has almost lost all meaning, but to "surprise and delight" customers in a way that no one else does. That requires an unexpected level of commitment, something the company calls "discretionary effort."
"Discretionary effort is when a company representative does something for a customer when no one is looking that he or she doesn't have to do," he explains. "You can't pay people to do that. They have to really want to give it. And you can only get that kind of effort from loyal associates. You get loyal associates by having people who believe that this is a company that really cares about them as individuals and is going to give them the tools and training they need to be successful. And it's not about money, although we have a lot of people here who are very successful. But money doesn't get you a story like the one about the sales rep who was willing to drive 140 miles round trip to a customer's house on a Friday night to demonstrate a car that the rep would have had no trouble selling to someone else the next day. That only happens when you have the loyalty of the people, when they believe that Lexus is a great place to work, a place where they can achieve their goals."
BEGINNER'S LUXURY
Introduced to the American market in 1989, the Lexus marked a Japanese manufacturer's first foray into the import luxury-automobile battleground then dominated by such Teutonic titans as Mercedes and BMW. Predictably, critics reacted to the news with a mixture of ridicule and disbelief. Sure, the Japanese could build perfectly serviceable economy cars, the thinking went, but luxury?
Not only did Toyota build a luxury car to compete with the best Germany had to offer, but the Lexus in fact redefined the concept by setting a new standard for both European and American automakers to match - or be left in the dust. But as Clements emphasizes, what truly made Lexus different wasn't the comfier seats, better handling or features no one had ever thought to put in a car before. The difference, he explains, was in the service.
"The LS400 was a phenomenal success for the first four or five months," Clements says. "One of the articles said that the Lexus had gone 'from a question mark to a benchmark.' That helped dispel the notion that the Japanese couldn't build a genuine luxury car and luxury channel. But then we ran into a quality problem - our first recall. At that time the people here elected to do something that no one else had ever done before. They had a massive recall, went out and picked up every customer's car, made the repair, washed every car and then gave every owner a gift. Nobody had ever done that before - taken a recall and turned it into an opportunity to build customer loyalty. And what it did was give our dealers a level of authenticity - it showed that we were for real, that we meant it when we said we are all about a superb customer experience. So out of that initial adversity, we were very fortunate."
DISCRETION: THE BETTER PART OF VALUE
The goal at Lexus, says Clements, is not simply to offer good customer service, a concept so bland that it has almost lost all meaning, but to "surprise and delight" customers in a way that no one else does. That requires an unexpected level of commitment, something the company calls "discretionary effort."
"Discretionary effort is when a company representative does something for a customer when no one is looking that he or she doesn't have to do," he explains. "You can't pay people to do that. They have to really want to give it. And you can only get that kind of effort from loyal associates. You get loyal associates by having people who believe that this is a company that really cares about them as individuals and is going to give them the tools and training they need to be successful. And it's not about money, although we have a lot of people here who are very successful. But money doesn't get you a story like the one about the sales rep who was willing to drive 140 miles round trip to a customer's house on a Friday night to demonstrate a car that the rep would have had no trouble selling to someone else the next day. That only happens when you have the loyalty of the people, when they believe that Lexus is a great place to work, a place where they can achieve their goals."
01-17-04, 12:51 PM
#49
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You know, I was wondering whether to post here or not. Or start a new thread. But all the posting on the new GS and then this thread and the constant comparing to both bimmer and MB raise some interesting points. For you old farts that are around you might remember when things got going with Lexus and Infiniti. Nothing was ever publicized but the feeling I got was that, at least initially, Lexus was targeting far more the MB customer and Infiniti was targeting the bimmer buyer. The original Q was far more sporting than the LS and the LS went for refinement and value. Things may be a bit muddled now but I wonder how much. With the exception of the release of the GS400, which had a eye catching 0-60 time but not a lot more sporting pretensions, the IS really is the model that Lexus seems to try to focus on sport and, with apologies and not a lot of numbers to back up, I am not sure it has been a huge success in that area. Exactly where Acura is going seems to be pretty confusing. Maybe they aren't really trying for bimmer, MB, Lexus, or Infiniti territory but are trying to carve something out at a slightly lower price point. Just don't know but they don't really seem interested in moving up to the bimmer, MB, Lexus ranks (I can go either way about putting Infiniti in this category but I am talking about my perception of the makers focus, not our opinions). And I guess it is worth remembering that the MDX is, and has been for some time, Acura's hottest seller.
I don't think that Acura and Infiniti are alone in this. I could also make a point that Audi's focus also seems a bit confusing to me. I can also read VW's comments about their intentions but once again, I note that they want to get more for their cars but I am not sure what exactly they intend to bring to the market that is going to get serious customer following. Jaguar is always going to be Jaguar and who knows what the Ford influence is. I thought Ford was aiming pretty well a few years ago but now they seem to be trying very hard to become irrelevant, except for the F150. Of course, Ford was instrumental in preventing Mazda from going lux with Amati. The US makers are a whole different topic. I had pretty much gotten to the point that I was comfortable with the US makers getting what they seem to deserve but now I have softened somewhat. Probably another thread.
So has Acura lost its way or just focusing in areas that we don't agree with? Who knows. Are Lexus poor handling bimmer wannabes or value producing MB substitutes? Don't know that one either. But if you look at what is going on with auto design, the polarization is going to continue. I figured that you younguns' had the pulse of the future but all the comments on the new GS lead me to believe that we are going to get to a period of automotive design where there are going to be real "love it or hate it" opinions. Obviously bimmer took off in that direction. And the last of the mid size luxo contenders to update, the A6, is also going dramatic, in my opinion. That big hole in the schoz just doesn't do it for me. Why they think it is a good idea to graft something from Auto Union (as if most consumers today even know what that was) was baffling. And of all the things to grab from Auto Union, a big hole for a grill. Everybody must have a plan, and at the base of it is just trying to get our money.
I don't think that Acura and Infiniti are alone in this. I could also make a point that Audi's focus also seems a bit confusing to me. I can also read VW's comments about their intentions but once again, I note that they want to get more for their cars but I am not sure what exactly they intend to bring to the market that is going to get serious customer following. Jaguar is always going to be Jaguar and who knows what the Ford influence is. I thought Ford was aiming pretty well a few years ago but now they seem to be trying very hard to become irrelevant, except for the F150. Of course, Ford was instrumental in preventing Mazda from going lux with Amati. The US makers are a whole different topic. I had pretty much gotten to the point that I was comfortable with the US makers getting what they seem to deserve but now I have softened somewhat. Probably another thread.
So has Acura lost its way or just focusing in areas that we don't agree with? Who knows. Are Lexus poor handling bimmer wannabes or value producing MB substitutes? Don't know that one either. But if you look at what is going on with auto design, the polarization is going to continue. I figured that you younguns' had the pulse of the future but all the comments on the new GS lead me to believe that we are going to get to a period of automotive design where there are going to be real "love it or hate it" opinions. Obviously bimmer took off in that direction. And the last of the mid size luxo contenders to update, the A6, is also going dramatic, in my opinion. That big hole in the schoz just doesn't do it for me. Why they think it is a good idea to graft something from Auto Union (as if most consumers today even know what that was) was baffling. And of all the things to grab from Auto Union, a big hole for a grill. Everybody must have a plan, and at the base of it is just trying to get our money.
01-17-04, 02:46 PM
#50
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One thing we shouldn't lose sight of is that Honda is a MUCH smaller company than Toyota and so can't afford tons of different platforms, which is why the Acuras and Hondas share so many platforms.
01-17-04, 03:34 PM
#51
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Originally posted by bitkahuna
One thing we shouldn't lose sight of is that Honda is a MUCH smaller company than Toyota and so can't afford tons of different platforms, which is why the Acuras and Hondas share so many platforms.
One thing we shouldn't lose sight of is that Honda is a MUCH smaller company than Toyota and so can't afford tons of different platforms, which is why the Acuras and Hondas share so many platforms.
James
Last edited by jet864; 01-17-04 at 03:37 PM.
01-17-04, 07:29 PM
#52
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I don't give Honda much of a chance in the pickup market. Not without a V8 or a killer hybrid setup.
01-17-04, 07:33 PM
#53
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Originally posted by jet864
True but they aren't fooling anyone when basically EVERY Honda platform has an Acura counterpart in one market or the other. Even the MDX is based off the Pilot. Looks like they got enough resources to develop the first Honda pickup.
True but they aren't fooling anyone when basically EVERY Honda platform has an Acura counterpart in one market or the other. Even the MDX is based off the Pilot. Looks like they got enough resources to develop the first Honda pickup.
01-17-04, 09:03 PM
#54
Acura is going to selling their cars here in Mexico in October. Infiniti has been here since 1992, but only sells the Q and J series. Acura will sell three car models. Lexus still has not arrived. However, it is eagerly being awaited.
01-17-04, 09:06 PM
#55
Incidentally, I saw a few strange things at our weekly car show-off in my neighborhood in Mexico City:
An Odyssey with NOS, yes 240 hp from the engine and then some. I badly wanted to race this guy to teach him a lesson.
Another crackpot with a Honda that had Acura labels. I was ready to tell him off, but then told him politely Acura/Honda, what's the difference, THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE ANYWAY (sans the NSX).
An Odyssey with NOS, yes 240 hp from the engine and then some. I badly wanted to race this guy to teach him a lesson.
Another crackpot with a Honda that had Acura labels. I was ready to tell him off, but then told him politely Acura/Honda, what's the difference, THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE ANYWAY (sans the NSX).
Last edited by Lexmexico; 01-17-04 at 09:07 PM.
01-18-04, 09:51 AM
#56
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don't give Honda much of a chance in the pickup market. Not without a V8 or a killer hybrid setup.
True but they aren't fooling anyone when basically EVERY Honda platform has an Acura counterpart in one market or the other
I am 26 years old. Besides the old Legend and of course the wonderful NSX, Acura has never made any car I would pay for. Which is weird, seeing how I see a lot of younger people buying Acura as a "sporty" car. Their cars are very low in price (which has a lot to do with young people being able to afford them), if I knew nothing about cars, the TSX and TL would be serious replacements for the GS.
01-18-04, 10:42 AM
#57
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Is this a luxury car?
Is this a luxury car?
Now it may not be as "high & mighty" (overpriced) as your precious Lexus' but for someone who wants the reliabilty of the Honda Civic but would like a few extra features (ex: Leather Interior, Power Sunroof, CD Player, Automatic Climate Control) it's a pretty damned good car!
And for those of you who have never heard of it, there's a reason...it's only in Canada!
Now I own an Acura TSX and when it comes to bang for buck, this is one of the finest cars ever.
How much would you pay for a Lexus with the following features:
- 5 Disc In-Dash CD Changer
- Dual Automatic Climate Control
- Dual-Mode Heated Leather Seats
- 6 Speed Manual Transmission
Probably a hell of a lot more than I paid for my TSX!
And when it comes to power, sure it may only be a 4 cylinder engine, but Honda has managed to honk out every little bit of power from those 4 cylinders pushing it all the way up to 200bhp!
And you know what really makes me laugh? When you Lexus people complain that Acuras are just Hondas with another badge on it...who the hell do you think makes your precious Lexus? I hate to burst your bubble, but it's TOYOTA!!! Not Mercedes...not BMW...not Porsche...TOYOTA!!!
Now, can't we all just get along?
I'll see all you Lexus owners in my rear-view mirror! Ha Ha Ha!
01-18-04, 02:04 PM
#58
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Originally posted by regina_tsx
Having owned one for 2 years, I can honestly say "Yes"...the Acura EL is a luxury car!
Now it may not be as "high & mighty" (overpriced) as your precious Lexus' but for someone who wants the reliabilty of the Honda Civic but would like a few extra features (ex: Leather Interior, Power Sunroof, CD Player, Automatic Climate Control) it's a pretty damned good car!
Having owned one for 2 years, I can honestly say "Yes"...the Acura EL is a luxury car!
Now it may not be as "high & mighty" (overpriced) as your precious Lexus' but for someone who wants the reliabilty of the Honda Civic but would like a few extra features (ex: Leather Interior, Power Sunroof, CD Player, Automatic Climate Control) it's a pretty damned good car!
I'm sure your Civic, um, Acura, is reliable, but 4 cylinder cars are not luxury cars.
And for those of you who have never heard of it, there's a reason...it's only in Canada!
Now I own an Acura TSX and when it comes to bang for buck, this is one of the finest cars ever.
I'll see all you Lexus owners in my rear-view mirror! Ha Ha Ha!
Last edited by bitkahuna; 01-18-04 at 02:05 PM.
01-18-04, 02:15 PM
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Uh-oh! Regina's about to get flamed, so maybe I can insert some other opinions and perspectives in here to deflect the oncoming onslaught.
I've owned two Acura (a '97 Integra GS-R and my current 3.0CL) and one Lexus (my current GS430). I consider myself pretty unbiased when it comes to these two brands. I don't think Lexus is overpriced just to get a fancy nameplate or logo on the trunk (but I do think MB and Land Rover fit that description), nor do I feel that Acura is a luxury wanna-be company that doesn't have a chance of competing with Lexus.
Lexus offers the ultimate realization of cars on the road today, for those of us not in the stratosphere of personal income. They blend performance, luxury, and reliability with outstanding customer service at every interaction. Features like Mark Levinson sound systems make Lexus vehicles stand out as clearly superior to the competition.
Acura offers "Lexus-lite". The vehicles and customer service are noticeably, but only marginally less impressive. When factoring in the tremendous difference in price, Acura offers an unbeatable value.
"Value" to me does NOT equal "cheap", as it does to 1SickLex. I look for value in everything I buy, which often leads to me the most expensive products in a particular segment. Lexus is a poor value compared to Acura, but I bought one last time because I was willing to pay a premium price to get that incremental increase in quality.
As for the vehicles themselves, here's my quick rundown of each lineup:
RSX: A nice, sporty car that offers an affordable way into the luxury-car service of Acura. I liked the styling of the Integra better, but at least the RSX isn't offensive like so many new designs lately.
TSX: I wondered who the heck would buy a 4-banger luxury sport sedan until I got one as a loaner. It is solid inside and out, and that engine is smooth and powerful. This car beats, hands down, the so-called ultimate entry-luxury sport sedan, the 3-series.
TL: The new design doesn't do much for me, as it's looking more like the new, angular Caddilacs. Still, it offers a heck of a lot of features for a great price. FWD doesn't bother me like it does so many people here--it's actually an ADVANTAGE to those of us who drive in winter weather half the year.
RL: A great car and an unbeatable value, but a dog in the performance department and not costly or impressive enough to be a true "flagship". If there was a sedan higher than the RL, freeing this car up to fit nicely between the sporty TL and the real flagship, it would do just fine.
MDX: The best mid-size sport ute out there. Since introduction it has raised the bar on what features and amenities are desireable. It's priced affordably and looks great.
NSX: My ultimate dream car, I only hope they don't screw it up with the redesign.
ES: A perfectly satisfactory entry-level luxury sedan. Sedate and uninspiring, yet perfectly predictable and solid.
IS: I just don't get the IS. It's not sporty, nor luxurious. It's not priced to compete, nor replete with features making it worthy of being the plus-$30K club. Frankly (and please don't be offended if you own an IS), I simply don't see any reason to buy one at all!
GS: The best sporty luxury sedan on the road. Better than the 5-series, better than the E-class, better than the S-type, better than the A6... This car puts everything into balance in one hot-looking package. Again, I hope they don't screw it up with the redesign.
LS: Simply amazing. Other than prestige value, I think it wins hands-down as the best luxury sedan made today.
RX: Overrated, but acceptable. If badged as a Toyota I guess I wouldn't have any problems with it, but the ride, features, and feel just don't live up to the rest of the Lexus line.
GX: Also overrated. Although the MDX competes in price with the RX, I think it outclasses even the GX in terms of build quality and features.
LX: A fine vehicle, but pretty pricey for what you get (I also think the Land Rover falls into this category). The design is looking a bit stale, but it fits the Lexus image of ultimate ride comfort and build quality.
SC: Oops! Lexus took a stunningly beautiful design (the old SC) and ruined it. I like the power top and the car's curves from certain angles, but this eggplant simply can't compete against cars like the SL and NSX when it comes to sheer beauty of design.
I've owned two Acura (a '97 Integra GS-R and my current 3.0CL) and one Lexus (my current GS430). I consider myself pretty unbiased when it comes to these two brands. I don't think Lexus is overpriced just to get a fancy nameplate or logo on the trunk (but I do think MB and Land Rover fit that description), nor do I feel that Acura is a luxury wanna-be company that doesn't have a chance of competing with Lexus.
Lexus offers the ultimate realization of cars on the road today, for those of us not in the stratosphere of personal income. They blend performance, luxury, and reliability with outstanding customer service at every interaction. Features like Mark Levinson sound systems make Lexus vehicles stand out as clearly superior to the competition.
Acura offers "Lexus-lite". The vehicles and customer service are noticeably, but only marginally less impressive. When factoring in the tremendous difference in price, Acura offers an unbeatable value.
"Value" to me does NOT equal "cheap", as it does to 1SickLex. I look for value in everything I buy, which often leads to me the most expensive products in a particular segment. Lexus is a poor value compared to Acura, but I bought one last time because I was willing to pay a premium price to get that incremental increase in quality.
As for the vehicles themselves, here's my quick rundown of each lineup:
RSX: A nice, sporty car that offers an affordable way into the luxury-car service of Acura. I liked the styling of the Integra better, but at least the RSX isn't offensive like so many new designs lately.
TSX: I wondered who the heck would buy a 4-banger luxury sport sedan until I got one as a loaner. It is solid inside and out, and that engine is smooth and powerful. This car beats, hands down, the so-called ultimate entry-luxury sport sedan, the 3-series.
TL: The new design doesn't do much for me, as it's looking more like the new, angular Caddilacs. Still, it offers a heck of a lot of features for a great price. FWD doesn't bother me like it does so many people here--it's actually an ADVANTAGE to those of us who drive in winter weather half the year.
RL: A great car and an unbeatable value, but a dog in the performance department and not costly or impressive enough to be a true "flagship". If there was a sedan higher than the RL, freeing this car up to fit nicely between the sporty TL and the real flagship, it would do just fine.
MDX: The best mid-size sport ute out there. Since introduction it has raised the bar on what features and amenities are desireable. It's priced affordably and looks great.
NSX: My ultimate dream car, I only hope they don't screw it up with the redesign.
ES: A perfectly satisfactory entry-level luxury sedan. Sedate and uninspiring, yet perfectly predictable and solid.
IS: I just don't get the IS. It's not sporty, nor luxurious. It's not priced to compete, nor replete with features making it worthy of being the plus-$30K club. Frankly (and please don't be offended if you own an IS), I simply don't see any reason to buy one at all!
GS: The best sporty luxury sedan on the road. Better than the 5-series, better than the E-class, better than the S-type, better than the A6... This car puts everything into balance in one hot-looking package. Again, I hope they don't screw it up with the redesign.
LS: Simply amazing. Other than prestige value, I think it wins hands-down as the best luxury sedan made today.
RX: Overrated, but acceptable. If badged as a Toyota I guess I wouldn't have any problems with it, but the ride, features, and feel just don't live up to the rest of the Lexus line.
GX: Also overrated. Although the MDX competes in price with the RX, I think it outclasses even the GX in terms of build quality and features.
LX: A fine vehicle, but pretty pricey for what you get (I also think the Land Rover falls into this category). The design is looking a bit stale, but it fits the Lexus image of ultimate ride comfort and build quality.
SC: Oops! Lexus took a stunningly beautiful design (the old SC) and ruined it. I like the power top and the car's curves from certain angles, but this eggplant simply can't compete against cars like the SL and NSX when it comes to sheer beauty of design.
01-18-04, 02:37 PM
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i remember reading in some mag that the new nsx's frame is 200lbs. its curb weight is 3153lbs if u take that into consideration a 3.2liter engine 290hp 224lb toque its a pretty fast car man.