brendanlim

Where in Alabama are you located sir?

Sheet One

I would have to say on the Luxury side, Lexus is better than Acura, however, I believe Honda/Acura motors are still superior. Honda is good at getting their motors to produce 100HP+ per liter. Now I know torque will always be better than HP which is where a V8 has an advantage, but that's about it. I myself have an RSX Type S which has quite a bit of ***** for a 4 cylinder. I can't say Toyota has made a 4 cylinder motor that comes close to competing with the one in the RSX Type S. This is just my preference. In the end for luxury and power, I'd still pick BMW.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Using an absolute like 'superior' is a bad idea. I've always loved Honda/Acura and will continue to do so. But Honda/Acura has nothing to compete with my torquey V8 which I LOVE. Honda/Acura doesn't make an inline 6 and of course it doesn't do RWD except the NSX and S2000 (and maybe others I'm not aware of).

legendary

Let me say this....and I know many of you know I can speak to this 100%....
Having had the Legend in all forms (coupe, sedan, Type I, Type II, A/T, M/T) I will say, THAT was when Acura (Honda) had its act together. As these two fine gentlemen have stated above, Acura was on the right path then, and could be compared to its Lexus counterparts. The Legend was just that.....

However, Acura (Honda), has clearly lost its direction.

Marinate on this with me folks....
HOW IN THE WORLD can your FLAGSHIP be less powerful than your mid-level vehicle?
Correction on the 3.5RL...the '02 Forward have about 225hp, and more torque than predecessors.

BUT.....
How do you explain your TL-S of all years being more powerful than your flagship? I have driven the 2003 RL (Kevon has one - VP/ Legendary Legendz), and it is no slouch....I mean its peppy, very nice interior wise.....but, it should be on par with its peers. Ok, so no V8? Fine....at least make it with 300hp.

(Understand, its not about being a "sports car" as the flagship, but even Dodge is showing just how America is with the commercial about the kid with Mom and Dad in the Durango. "One word you need to know...HEMI").

As long as HP, 0-60, and prestige are large parts of America, they will mean something with cars and status.

So, back to my message....
Acura is misguided. They have many cars in the lineup that seem to be peers.....RSX, TSX, TL, RL, NSX....why?

Honda will probably NEVER do....ok, NOT LIKELY do a RWD vehicle other than the NSX. Those are its values on making power efficiently with no more than 6 cylinders, to protect the environment. That is fine, but give us something to look forward to, ok?

One last thing. I have an SC, and two Legends. They are all good for their purposes. The SC has the prestige, the oomph, and an overall MORE luxurious feel that the Legend(s). The Legend coupe is fun for recreation...rear rolling windows, nice road feel, pretty good power....ahead of its time. Same with the sedan. Honda doesn't do that anymore.

best of both worlds.....get a Legend, keep the Lexus....do what makes you feel good with the newer Acuras....there is a home for all of you.

And to the Acura guys....don't come on here making lame comments like that....it makes it look worse, and proves the point of the targeted demographic for that marque. What a shame

Iceman

You make great points. On this one, while I agree with you that's what Honda is claiming, Lexus has managed to create a rock-solid high-output V8 that qualifies for ULEV status and has only a minor fuel efficiency hit from the 6. Honda could do the same if they set their engineers on it.

legendary

I agree.
I feel they have gotten as far as they want to go, and removed their packs.....
Resting on their laurels instead of trying to awe-inspire us with new and exciting product.

They are not trying to be industry leaders....just meandering along....going with what works.
If Mr. Honda was around, I am certain the CL/TL would have gone a completely different route, and Acura would probably be a contender.

Iceman

I had a thought today while struggling home through the snow and freezing rain in my CL. I wonder if Acura has made a conscious decision NOT to compete with Lexus. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense. Honda is a smaller company, meaning less resources to throw into a direct market battle. Lexus has established itself, while Acura has fallen, meaning they would have to work extra hard to regain parity. A smarter business approach would be to create a whole new market where they don't compete with anyone, namely the "near luxury" segment, providing incredible value with marginal improvements over the mainstream.

When Acura was first invented, all it took to be a luxury car was leather and an automatic climate control. Acura fit right in. But since then the "price of entry" to the luxury level has risen dramatically. In my opinion, Honda now provides a lot more car for the money than Toyota--for example look at the Accord vs. Camry. The Camry is still pretty much in the same league it's always been, while the Accord is offering features that even five years ago would have placed it squarely in luxury territory. This places Acura in an awkward position--how to add value without getting into Lexus pricing. If you have $25K to spend, you'll but a Honda. If you have $40K to spend, you'll buy a Lexus. But they have found a niche in there, small as it may seem, to provide more features than a Honda but less prestige than a Lexus.

The RL is another example. While clearly not in the same league as the LS, 7-series, or S-class, it is an amazing vehicle for the money. It's better than ANYTHING you can buy from the mainstream manufacturers, and there's apparently at least some segment of the population who appreciate it for what it is. If they went V-8 and RWD, it's shortcomings compared to the "competition" would be even more apparent. So instead they have created a new niche for a luxury sedan that costs half of the alleged "competition".

It all fit into place for me when I considered the S2000. For years I've been stupefied that they sold it here as a Honda and not an Acura. After all, Acura is supposed to be the "luxury and performance division of the American Honda Motor Company". But selling the S2000 as an Acura would have put them in direct competition with the SLK and Z3. Marketing it as a Honda caused the automotive press (and the public) to ooh and aah over the performance for price ratio, without knocking too hard the cheapo interior and ridiculously harsh ride.

As much as many of us here would like to see Lexus produce a GS that competes with the M5 and E55, smarter minds than ours have decided that wouldn't be a smart move. In a similar vein, as much as we all seem to think Acura is a competitor for Lexus, maybe the corporate honchos have seen the folly in that approach. Only time will tell...

Milla...

Wow interesting thread, I guess we can all sit here all day and say what we want a auto manufacture's goals to be. Its apparent that Acura isn't trying to be a high Luxury line, if they wanted to I'm sure they would, I mean look at how they started out, they took the world by storm with the Legend, one of the most respected products made by Honda, that car was/ is Legendary, the perfect balance of both sport and Luxury, its one of the very very few cars that I still wouldn't mind owning right now. Somewhere between 95 and 96 that direction and mission changed it was almost like someone was waiting for Mr. Honda to exspire so that they can take Acura in their own direction which is the product we see here today.

I don't have anything personal against Acura, I mean I can really care less because I have the choice to choose what I want to spend my money on thankfully, some here seem to take it a bit to seriously. I only wish they would of kept the direction they once traveled maybe I would have all Acura products in my garage. The current line is nice the TL /TSX are very nice and are much better than the previous designs IHO they're just not what I'm looking for in an auto at this time in my life and apparently not most Lexus owners hence Lexus owners. Acura, they are who they are, and they do a mighty fine job with what they do and I can respect that. Bottom line, are they a Luxury line? to Chevy Cavalier owner heck yeah, to a Lexus owner heck no.

Lexus is my nich, they are the only ones at this time that does everything I need and want and exspect I guess you can say I'm a loyalist (03' LS430/ 01' GS430/ 00' LX470 and single never married so no ex husband left overs)but only to my needs, the moment they deviate from what I expect I'll look else where like anyone else.

Benzman

_________________________________________________________________________________

Perhaps you need to bone up some on your facts. Honda built THE F1 V8 on the planet and for a number of years it was THE KING of the hill in the toughest racing sport in the world. Don't ever think for a moment Honda couldn't drop a V8 on the market. It seems they don't feel a need at this time...

When Lexus can claim even a 1/10th of Honda's glory with the V8 you come back tell me about it......!!!!

BTW: I do not own a Honda.......my screen name says it all...and Yes........I like Lexus as well. Just not my 'cup of tea' at the moment...

Enjoy the ride..........

autoenthus

Does it make us feel better to claim brand x is better than brand y because we chose to purchase brand x? Or ask what's wrong w/brand y when we think brand x is so much better?

Is Acura less of a car co because they offer sub 30K cars? No. BTW Lexus does offer a car for <30K http://www.lexus.com/models/is/index.html Doubt if anyone has actually purchased a 29K IS300.
One interested in a RSX probably will not be heading to the Lexus dealer. Acura is Honda's upscale division, is a RSX more luxurious than an IS300/G35/328i, No. Is it more luxurious than a Civic, YES.

Is Lexus less of a car co because they don't offer a 500+ HP super sedan? No. One interested in a LS430 probably will not be cross-shopping an Arnage R, M5 or an AMG SL55. Lexus is Toyota's upscale division, is a LS430 more luxurious than an Arnage/SL55, No. Is it more luxurious than an Avalon/M45, Yes.

Luxury is subjective.

Brand loyalty is a great, some would even say a virtuous characteristc, but to belittle one's auto purchase decision is well, somewhat less than noble.

I'm thrilled to have hundreds of choices when it comes to purchasing an auto. I go to the auto show every year to see all of the cars, not just Lexus. There's usually questionable decisions w/every manufactuer, why does Toyota offer like 10 SUV's? Why doesn't MB offer a manual tranny on their AMG line? The answer is usually, $$$$ -- it sells. They all offer some kind of quality/value/exciting products, if not they end up like Yugo & Daewoo.

Let's not pretend to take our GS300/LS430/TL/RL's to the track, that would be just silly.

Let's celebrate what we have & not bash others. Can't we all just get along?

doug_999

Well said!

vandy786

It's always easy to compare yourself to something you deem inferior. You say: will Acura ever compete on the same level as Lexus? I know it gives some Lexus owners immense pleasure to bash something else and validate their purchase. But I can shoot right back and say: will Lexus ever compete on the same level as BMW or Mercedes Benz? Bottom line is Lexus is the upscale division of Toyota and Acura is the upscale division of Honda. They will always be Toyotas and Hondas even though one model might be better than the other. Some of you guys need to chill out. I feel a lot of insecurity and I bet some people feel threatened by the new TL since it recently ran 0-60 in 5.7s and 1/4 in 14.2 @99. Instead of complaining about what it can't do because it's FWD, can you not appreciate what it can do despite this "disadvantage"?

Also, it seems like a lot of people here are overtly obsessed with image or perception. If you bought your Lexus because you felt that it gave you a great aristocratic image, I'll ask you why you stopped at Lexus. Clearly the M5 or the E55AMG pummels the best Lexus offering in almost every category.

On another note, if you're like me, you might have had a certain amount of money you were looking to spend on a car. You did your research and reached the conclusion that the M5 or the E55AMG was not worth the extra money and the GS430 would fit your needs. I can see the logic in that. That is how I ruled out the IS300, ES300, Infiniti I35, Maxima SE, BMW 3 series, and MB C series in favor of my TLS in 2001.

Brand loyalty is nice and everything, and I'd like to see my car manufacturer do well. Who doesn't? But I'm also not stupid enough stay on the ship when someone else is offering a better combo. This will be my last post for now. However, you may see me here in the future as a Lexus owner, especially in 2005 if Acura fails to bring to the market a 400 HP AWD RL I'm hearing rumors of. Peace.

LexFather

Uhhh, some of us do take our GS cars to the track. No one said it wasn't a good car. It's a nice niche vehicle. How many drivers do u think can replicate that run with the manual? I say about 2% of TL drivers.

BTW, So the TL may be a great overall car but since it is sold and marketed as a sports sedan, it still falls short.But it is one of the best FWD cars out there.

D2-AUTOSPORT

This is my first time really reading this post, and its a good one (idiots spewing curses and racial swipes notwithstanding).

This thread reminds me of some conversations (arguements) that my friend and I used to have when i had my 96 GS3 and he had a 99 3.2TL. I would be talking and mention that TL shares its platform with a Accord, and he would get all mad and huffy and say something stupid like "Oh the GS aint nothing but a Avalon, etc etc" Of course that's asinine, since one is a FWD/V6 and the other is a RWD/I6.

Someone came on and said that we Lexus guys are insecure about Acuras being as good as our cars, or whatever. To be totally honest it seems as if you guys are insecure about driving a vehicle that is regarded as "near luxury" as opposed to a car that is in the thick of the luxury car battle. I say that because you all come on and get defensive, and post trivial info (TL can do 0-60 in 5.7secs, etc etc) in order to defend your brand.

Someone asked if Lexus drivers feel inferior to M/B's at the stoplight. In all truth in the GS class and below, NO. If I hit the light in a GS and a Eclass pulls up next to me, there is no envy! Yet if I had a LS430 and a S500 pulled up, thats a little different (10-15k higher sticker price). Now ask if a TL driver, when he hits the light next to a GS, does HE feel inferior???!!!! (small point, my buddy sold his 99 TL for a 99 GS4, we never have those trivial discussions anymore )

Bottom line, Acura's are very nice, well equiped, reliable (excluding the TL tranny horror show), and a very stout value. But at the end of the day, they have not had any "heavy hitters" in the luxury class since the Legend days (one my top 10 fav cars BTW-the coupe ).

Swat Dude

Wow, this is a very interesting thread. It seems like Lexus owners tend to tie their self worth into the type of car they own. Must be a miserable way to live since there will always be someone with more money and a faster car. I must say just because you chose the Lexus does not make you, or the car, superior. I personally have owned several Toyota's including the following: '91 Tercel, 1997 4Runner Limited, 2000 Echo, 2002 Sequoia Limited(My wife's current Daily Driver), and a 2002 Camry, so I am no stanger to Toyota(Lexus) Quality. What most of the guys on this thread don't seem to understand is there are alot of variables that influence a car buying decision and not everyone is right for everyone even if you think "mines more luxury! mines more luxury!". When I had to purchase a sales vehicle in 11/2001, I considered several cars. I looked at the IS and a used GS430 for about $5000 more than the new IS. I have to be honest, I just never liked the look of the GS. I always thought it looked top heavy, and that larger rims did nothing to fix this. I loved the sporty look of the IS but when I test drove it, it just didn't have enough room for me and felt extremely cramped. My wife said the IS looked like something some wannabe 22 year old out of college would drive. I also felt that it really didn't have the power and performance I was looking for, sooooo instead of spending the extra money, I bought a new 2002 Camry SE V6. Great car, lots of room, soft ride, decent acceleration. It served me well for two years until I spied the new 2004 Acura TL. Now mind you I haven't owned a honda since my 1984 Civic in highschool, but something about this car just looked right. After researching this car for hours on the internet, I felt it had so much more to offer than anything out there for the money that I decided to buy it. For you twits that act like money didn't play into your buying decision, you're fools! I will guarantee you if money was no object I would not be driving a Lexus or an Acura. So I sold my Camry, at a loss I might add, and bought the TL. I love it. It looks great, has more standard features than any car out there in its class, and it performs very well. Just some things I had to comment on:
All this talk of Toyota V8's: How long did it take Toyota to put a freakin' V8 in a pickup truck and then look, it became all the rage.
The ES300: a glorified Camry. In fact, it was even slower and less agile than my Camry SE. Thus the need to release the ES330. They are not selling this car to people who want a sport sedan. I don't care how much #$%$ you've been smoking.
Torque Steer: 99% of the people who talk about this on these threads read about it somewhere and if they actually experienced it, probably didn't know it when it happened. Yes, under hard acceleration or less than perfect traction conditions, it can be a little un-nerving if you're not used to it or don't know how to react.
RX330: 4WD on Camry Platform. Lexus has sold a %#$#-load of these to affluent soccer moms and seniors. Does anyone actually take these cars off road???? Don't believe me??? Next time you're rolling down the freeway take your own little poll at who is driving these.
LX470: Compared this to the Land Cruiser and Sequoia. Again, with money being the object here(see above) I found no reason to buy a car with less room, less seats, worse gas mileage, slightly more supple leather and a few more luxury features. Bought the Sequoia Limited over the Land Cruiser and LX.
Acura TL is not luxury: By whose definition? The TL boasts Xenon headlights, leather seats, heated seats, heated mirrors, memory seats, memory side mirrors, memory climate control, memory dash lights, all memory tied to key fob, DVD Audio(5.1 Surround) with 6 disc in dash changer, XM radio, Tilt and telescoping steering wheel, cupholders, vanity mirrors on both visors with lights, cargo nets in trunk, 17" wheels with 45 series tires, Bluetooth wireless phone technology (my buddy has to plug his phone into his Mercedes E430...how quaint), Vehichle skid control, Traction control, Front/side, side curtain air bags, auto dimming mirror, DVD navigation that can adjust the climate control based on the radiant heat load for whatever direction you are facing, true dual climate controls that allow you to adjust not jus the automatic temp but which vents it comes out of on your side, rear seat vents, 10-way power driver's seat, change holder, (2) 12V plugs, Roadside assistance, Radio controls and cruise control controls imbedded into steering wheel, not just hanging off as an after thought, map lights for rear passengers, reverse tilt down side mirrors, trip computer, and an on board computer system that allows you to personalize your settings such as autolocking and memory features. AND FINALLY THE BIGGEST KICKER OF ALL... with the exception of the navigation system, ITS ALL STANDARD FOR $32,000.00. Super fluffy luxury car with soft ride and decent acceration???? No. Absolute best bang for your buck at $32,000, YES! YES! YES! The IS, ES, and V-6 GS can check out my nice dual tip exhaust as I leave them behind rocking to some 5.1 surround sound!