MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi- Dead men walking?
04-26-04 | 11:46 AM
#1
Thread Starter
G35x - RWD/AWD goodness
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,950
Likes: 1
From: Michigan
MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi- Dead men walking?
Interesting editorial from AutoSpies.com with lots of backhanded compliments for Lexus!
http://www.autospies.com./article/in...articleId=2862
"Are MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi dead and they don't even know it yet?
We say no, but we are getting increasingly concerned with these companies lagging behind Lexus and Infiniti when it comes to up-front technology and features that the customer can see, feel and touch.
You would have thought that they would have gotten the message over the last couple years after the navigation system and satellite radio fiascos.
But it seems they haven't.
At the New York auto show Acura showed a new real-time traffic info based navigation system (see last weeks article on the RL for more info)that auto re-routes the driver when an accident occurs somewhere on the designated route.
And once again, the Germans were nowhere to be found with a competitive response to what will be a 'key take away sale' feature come November when it's available.
Message to MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi:
WAKE UP!!!!!!!
The Japanese companies are the kings of putting the glitzy features up front in the customers face so they can steal your business.
And how brain dead are you guys?
It took the team at Mercedes about six years to figure out that customers will buy a Lexus over a Benz because it had a wooden steering wheel standard!
Up until recently, you had to buy the S600 to get that feature...
And BMW and Audi have yet to figure out such a simple option gives the customer the impression that the car is much more expensive than it is...
I can't tell you how many friends of mine tell me the Lexus LS is more expensive looking than an E-class, S-class, 5, 7, 911 or A6.
Why?
Because it's got a STUPID wooden steering wheel and when they touch the polished wood, it makes them FEEL rich!
How many Lexus or Infiniti owners just laugh when they get in a BMW, Benz, Porsche or an Audi and they see the navigation system?
LOTS!
You guys better do a better job understanding what customers REALLY want and think what LUXURY is today.
Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti get it.
And if things don't change soon, you'll wake up one day and realize you don't have anymore customers!"
http://www.autospies.com./article/in...articleId=2862
"Are MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi dead and they don't even know it yet?
We say no, but we are getting increasingly concerned with these companies lagging behind Lexus and Infiniti when it comes to up-front technology and features that the customer can see, feel and touch.
You would have thought that they would have gotten the message over the last couple years after the navigation system and satellite radio fiascos.
But it seems they haven't.
At the New York auto show Acura showed a new real-time traffic info based navigation system (see last weeks article on the RL for more info)that auto re-routes the driver when an accident occurs somewhere on the designated route.
And once again, the Germans were nowhere to be found with a competitive response to what will be a 'key take away sale' feature come November when it's available.
Message to MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi:
WAKE UP!!!!!!!
The Japanese companies are the kings of putting the glitzy features up front in the customers face so they can steal your business.
And how brain dead are you guys?
It took the team at Mercedes about six years to figure out that customers will buy a Lexus over a Benz because it had a wooden steering wheel standard!
Up until recently, you had to buy the S600 to get that feature...
And BMW and Audi have yet to figure out such a simple option gives the customer the impression that the car is much more expensive than it is...
I can't tell you how many friends of mine tell me the Lexus LS is more expensive looking than an E-class, S-class, 5, 7, 911 or A6.
Why?
Because it's got a STUPID wooden steering wheel and when they touch the polished wood, it makes them FEEL rich!
How many Lexus or Infiniti owners just laugh when they get in a BMW, Benz, Porsche or an Audi and they see the navigation system?
LOTS!
You guys better do a better job understanding what customers REALLY want and think what LUXURY is today.
Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti get it.
And if things don't change soon, you'll wake up one day and realize you don't have anymore customers!"
04-26-04 | 12:07 PM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Well, it depends on which Lexus customers you are talking about. I'm an IS300 owner myself, and I happen to like wood trim, both on the steering wheel and in the rest of the interior, but the clear majority of IS300 owners DON'T....especially with the bright yellow paint. Lexus offers a factory wood trim package for the IS for all but the yellow ones...but it has not sold particularly well.
And some cars that DO offer wood trim might as well not offer it at all...it is so dark and highly polished that it looks like a strip of black formica. Good examples of this are on the Type R Jaguars...their "wood" is MUCH darker than regular Jaguars, and, in my opinion, doesn't look like wood at all. Some of the Toyota wood packages, especially on the Avalon, also leave a lot to be desired.
Having said that, Teutonic cars generally don't sell on the richness of their interiors....they sell more on their driving dynamics, or, in the case of Mercedes, safety. And, like it or not, even in spite of this, Audi / VW today is considered the industry leader by many in terms of interior detail. Look inside an Audi A8 or VW Phaeton if you want proof.
And some cars that DO offer wood trim might as well not offer it at all...it is so dark and highly polished that it looks like a strip of black formica. Good examples of this are on the Type R Jaguars...their "wood" is MUCH darker than regular Jaguars, and, in my opinion, doesn't look like wood at all. Some of the Toyota wood packages, especially on the Avalon, also leave a lot to be desired.
Having said that, Teutonic cars generally don't sell on the richness of their interiors....they sell more on their driving dynamics, or, in the case of Mercedes, safety. And, like it or not, even in spite of this, Audi / VW today is considered the industry leader by many in terms of interior detail. Look inside an Audi A8 or VW Phaeton if you want proof.
04-26-04 | 02:58 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 954
Likes: 0
From: Texas
I agree.
BMW 3-series will take a huge sales hit once the new IS hits the streets.
Lexus or Toyota will offer a V10 halo-supercar.
I have heard of a 450hp Tundra, and a V10 Tundra from two diffrent sources. Both likely based on this same V10 motor. The new Tundra will be a success, period.
Lexus will likely translate some of that supercar technology into a "high performance" 4.3L (LF-C). WIth lighter internals (8000rpm+), and a redisigned head/combustion chamber, 85hp/L sounds feasible.
85hp/L*4.3L=365hp. M2/M3 killed
Since Acura and Nissan offer a 3.5L V6, Toyota must build one too.
3.5L = 290-300hp. There have been rumors of development for some time now.
BMW just cant match prices. Toyota/Honda/Nissan still can compensate for their repective channels' lower profit margins.
Like Clements said, if Lexus builds more powerful engines they will steal more BMW sales. He also mentioned Lexus will get back on magazine covers earlier.
Audi/VW are already weak with 2nd rate engineering. MB will continue its decline unless they get quality control in check.
Cadillac will continue to grow, since "made in america" is considered patriotic. Sales will level once Lincoln gets up to speed, as the two will split sales. Since the new F150 is bringing Ford tons of money, they can finance crappy Lincolns. "rednecks" dont mind giving Ford $10k+ profits per truck. $2billion last quarter
Just my 2-cents.
BMW 3-series will take a huge sales hit once the new IS hits the streets.
Lexus or Toyota will offer a V10 halo-supercar.
I have heard of a 450hp Tundra, and a V10 Tundra from two diffrent sources. Both likely based on this same V10 motor. The new Tundra will be a success, period.
Lexus will likely translate some of that supercar technology into a "high performance" 4.3L (LF-C). WIth lighter internals (8000rpm+), and a redisigned head/combustion chamber, 85hp/L sounds feasible.
85hp/L*4.3L=365hp. M2/M3 killed
Since Acura and Nissan offer a 3.5L V6, Toyota must build one too.
3.5L = 290-300hp. There have been rumors of development for some time now.
BMW just cant match prices. Toyota/Honda/Nissan still can compensate for their repective channels' lower profit margins.
Like Clements said, if Lexus builds more powerful engines they will steal more BMW sales. He also mentioned Lexus will get back on magazine covers earlier.
Audi/VW are already weak with 2nd rate engineering. MB will continue its decline unless they get quality control in check.
Cadillac will continue to grow, since "made in america" is considered patriotic. Sales will level once Lincoln gets up to speed, as the two will split sales. Since the new F150 is bringing Ford tons of money, they can finance crappy Lincolns. "rednecks" dont mind giving Ford $10k+ profits per truck. $2billion last quarter
Just my 2-cents.
04-26-04 | 09:06 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,057
Likes: 0
From: Washington
Originally posted by LexusLuver
BMW just cant match prices. Toyota/Honda/Nissan still can compensate for their repective channels' lower profit margins.
........
Since the new F150 is bringing Ford tons of money, they can finance crappy Lincolns. "rednecks" dont mind giving Ford $10k+ profits per truck. $2billion last quarter
Just my 2-cents.
BMW just cant match prices. Toyota/Honda/Nissan still can compensate for their repective channels' lower profit margins.
........
Since the new F150 is bringing Ford tons of money, they can finance crappy Lincolns. "rednecks" dont mind giving Ford $10k+ profits per truck. $2billion last quarter
Just my 2-cents.
Germans are insane on thier pricing. Once Lexus finally gets out there and actually makes one of these rumored cars and it is seen that these Japanese cars offer more for a lower price, legacy points all go out the window for the Germans.
Haha for the redneck comment and although I don't like Ford, the F-150 seems to be a great truck. However, I think Lincoln is all but dead. The LS, their nicest vehicle has HORRIBLE reliability and fit/finish and the Town Car? At least airports are buying them...James
04-27-04 | 05:20 AM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Originally posted by jet864
Germans are insane on thier pricing. Once Lexus finally gets out there and actually makes one of these rumored cars and it is seen that these Japanese cars offer more for a lower price, legacy points all go out the window for the Germans.
Haha for the redneck comment and although I don't like Ford, the F-150 seems to be a great truck. However, I think Lincoln is all but dead. The LS, their nicest vehicle has HORRIBLE reliability and fit/finish and the Town Car? At least airports are buying them...
James
Germans are insane on thier pricing. Once Lexus finally gets out there and actually makes one of these rumored cars and it is seen that these Japanese cars offer more for a lower price, legacy points all go out the window for the Germans.
Haha for the redneck comment and although I don't like Ford, the F-150 seems to be a great truck. However, I think Lincoln is all but dead. The LS, their nicest vehicle has HORRIBLE reliability and fit/finish and the Town Car? At least airports are buying them...James
04-27-04 | 01:11 PM
#7
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
From: California
Wow..he was actually talking about infiniti and lexus side by side against the european competition. Yay infiniti and lexus. Infiniti is definetely making an impact on the market now compared to the past.
Last edited by Xenthar; 04-27-04 at 01:11 PM.
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04-27-04 | 04:08 PM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 954
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Originally posted by jet864
Germans are insane on thier pricing. Once Lexus finally gets out there and actually makes one of these rumored cars and it is seen that these Japanese cars offer more for a lower price, legacy points all go out the window for the Germans.
Haha for the redneck comment and although I don't like Ford, the F-150 seems to be a great truck. However, I think Lincoln is all but dead. The LS, their nicest vehicle has HORRIBLE reliability and fit/finish and the Town Car? At least airports are buying them...
James
Germans are insane on thier pricing. Once Lexus finally gets out there and actually makes one of these rumored cars and it is seen that these Japanese cars offer more for a lower price, legacy points all go out the window for the Germans.
Haha for the redneck comment and although I don't like Ford, the F-150 seems to be a great truck. However, I think Lincoln is all but dead. The LS, their nicest vehicle has HORRIBLE reliability and fit/finish and the Town Car? At least airports are buying them...James
I really dont like Ford either.
Lincoln plans on adding a few luxury cars. They'll mostly end up stealing Caddy sales, IMO
Now Ford actually has money (thanks to the F-series), to start building new platforms. Of course their engineering sucks, so they'll just end up borrowing R&D from other companies.
GM learned not to ignore the Toyota/Honda/Nissan. Ford still has trouble with the lesson, eventually they'll be forced to actually spend money designing cars. They can't depend on trucks for profits (95%) forever. Fleet sales are on the decline too.
Audi will always be a minor player, I think most people buy their cars for the
factor.Of course Audi execs plan on doubling US sales by 2008 making them a huge player. But who really believes anything German auto execs say these days.
04-27-04 | 06:18 PM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 954
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Smug No More
Jerry Flint, 05.10.04, 12:00 AM ET
European carmakers are starting to lose sales to invigorated Asian manufacturers. Will Europe repeat Detroit's mistakes?
More From Jerry Flint
Everybody gets a turn in the box. For years the American auto industry suffered and the Europeans were a bit smug. They were hot, they were profitable, they built prestige cars, and even the Asians couldn't push them off the road.
Suddenly, sales of Japanese and Korean vehicles are climbing fast in Europe while local makers stand still. That's not all. The dollar is shrinking against the strong euro and eroding the huge profits that were coming from America.
Costs and quality issues that didn't seem important in the past are becoming serious. And even the basic strategies of European car companies are being called into question.
Europe isn't yet the U.S., where foreign nameplates take 51% of the car sales (a few of those names, such as Volvo and Saab, are Detroit-owned) and 25% of the truck sales.
In Europe the Japanese for years took about 10% of the business and the Korean share was minuscule. Those shares began growing last year. In two months this year the Japanese had 13% of the sales and the Koreans 4%, or a combined 17%.
Look at it another way. In the first two months of this year native European companies Volkswagen, Peugeot, DaimlerChrysler and General Motors (Opel) were down 6% in sales from the year-before two months. The Ford group is down 1%, and Renault and BMW are even (thanks to a gain for BMW's little Mini). Fiat is up nearly 3%.
But Toyota's sales in Europe are up 24%, Mazda's up 33%, Honda's up 19%, and sales of the Korean firms Hyundai and Kia up 17%.
Why are the Asians so hot? Some industry leaders talk about the currency advantage they get from the strong euro--since in euro terms their Japanese yen and Korean won prices are low. But I think that more-important reasons are new models, more variety, long-standing quality reputations and improved diesel engines.
One more thing: In Europe the Asians do poorly in the countries that are home to auto companies but extremely well in smaller countries that don't make cars. Toyota got 3% of the market in Germany and France and 5% in Italy last year. But Toyota won 16% of the market in Norway and Ireland and 15% in Finland. Hyundai and Kia had 2% in Germany and 1% in France but 4% in Norway and Ireland. As car sales climb in the eastern European states that are joining the EU, my guess is that Asian cars will get a disproportionate share there, too.
The Japanese both build in and export to Europe. Toyota, Nissan and Honda build in Great Britain, but all the Asians are spreading out. Toyota built a plant in France, and some Asian firms are going to eastern Europe, where the labor is cheap.
The euro is a serious problem because of the profits the German companies (not the French or Italian Fiat) made in the U.S. "Even with hedging, the fall in the value of the dollar is cutting into the earnings of every German auto company," writes auto analyst Maryann Keller. If the euro stays at $1.26 or higher, it's bad news. "German car companies can raise prices, sell fewer cars and see their profits collapse, or they can hold the line on prices and see their margins shrink," she says.
The currency change unmasks a more basic issue: high labor costs--they love that 35-hour week over there--and low productivity. Quality is another problem: Mercedes and VW, particularly, have tarred their reputations.
Then there are strategic questions. VW is moving up the income scale with expensive cars and acquired luxury nameplates, while the new VW Golf, the bread-and-butter car, is not setting Europe afire. That's trouble.
Daimler's global dream is a nightmare. Mitsubishi, which it controls, is a disaster, and Chrysler is fighting to get out of the red while doubts are raised about Mercedes' quality.
Opel and Ford have been losing money in Europe. They have switched from American to European leaders, which should help, but the market is getting tough.
Europeans might have been able to handle many of these problems if it weren't for the Asians' growth. The Europeans, even more than Americans, hate to close factories and lay off workers. Politicians don't like it, and neither do the workers. They riot and burn tires.
So what will the Europeans do? Go with incentives (as Detroit is doing) and give away the profits? Find some sneaky way of protection? Import from China? Restructure? Squeeze the partsmakers? Boost productivity and quality? Or just lose the business, as Detroit did?
We'll see what they learned from Detroit's mistakes.
Jerry Flint, 05.10.04, 12:00 AM ET
European carmakers are starting to lose sales to invigorated Asian manufacturers. Will Europe repeat Detroit's mistakes?
More From Jerry Flint
Everybody gets a turn in the box. For years the American auto industry suffered and the Europeans were a bit smug. They were hot, they were profitable, they built prestige cars, and even the Asians couldn't push them off the road.
Suddenly, sales of Japanese and Korean vehicles are climbing fast in Europe while local makers stand still. That's not all. The dollar is shrinking against the strong euro and eroding the huge profits that were coming from America.
Costs and quality issues that didn't seem important in the past are becoming serious. And even the basic strategies of European car companies are being called into question.
Europe isn't yet the U.S., where foreign nameplates take 51% of the car sales (a few of those names, such as Volvo and Saab, are Detroit-owned) and 25% of the truck sales.
In Europe the Japanese for years took about 10% of the business and the Korean share was minuscule. Those shares began growing last year. In two months this year the Japanese had 13% of the sales and the Koreans 4%, or a combined 17%.
Look at it another way. In the first two months of this year native European companies Volkswagen, Peugeot, DaimlerChrysler and General Motors (Opel) were down 6% in sales from the year-before two months. The Ford group is down 1%, and Renault and BMW are even (thanks to a gain for BMW's little Mini). Fiat is up nearly 3%.
But Toyota's sales in Europe are up 24%, Mazda's up 33%, Honda's up 19%, and sales of the Korean firms Hyundai and Kia up 17%.
Why are the Asians so hot? Some industry leaders talk about the currency advantage they get from the strong euro--since in euro terms their Japanese yen and Korean won prices are low. But I think that more-important reasons are new models, more variety, long-standing quality reputations and improved diesel engines.
One more thing: In Europe the Asians do poorly in the countries that are home to auto companies but extremely well in smaller countries that don't make cars. Toyota got 3% of the market in Germany and France and 5% in Italy last year. But Toyota won 16% of the market in Norway and Ireland and 15% in Finland. Hyundai and Kia had 2% in Germany and 1% in France but 4% in Norway and Ireland. As car sales climb in the eastern European states that are joining the EU, my guess is that Asian cars will get a disproportionate share there, too.
The Japanese both build in and export to Europe. Toyota, Nissan and Honda build in Great Britain, but all the Asians are spreading out. Toyota built a plant in France, and some Asian firms are going to eastern Europe, where the labor is cheap.
The euro is a serious problem because of the profits the German companies (not the French or Italian Fiat) made in the U.S. "Even with hedging, the fall in the value of the dollar is cutting into the earnings of every German auto company," writes auto analyst Maryann Keller. If the euro stays at $1.26 or higher, it's bad news. "German car companies can raise prices, sell fewer cars and see their profits collapse, or they can hold the line on prices and see their margins shrink," she says.
The currency change unmasks a more basic issue: high labor costs--they love that 35-hour week over there--and low productivity. Quality is another problem: Mercedes and VW, particularly, have tarred their reputations.
Then there are strategic questions. VW is moving up the income scale with expensive cars and acquired luxury nameplates, while the new VW Golf, the bread-and-butter car, is not setting Europe afire. That's trouble.
Daimler's global dream is a nightmare. Mitsubishi, which it controls, is a disaster, and Chrysler is fighting to get out of the red while doubts are raised about Mercedes' quality.
Opel and Ford have been losing money in Europe. They have switched from American to European leaders, which should help, but the market is getting tough.
Europeans might have been able to handle many of these problems if it weren't for the Asians' growth. The Europeans, even more than Americans, hate to close factories and lay off workers. Politicians don't like it, and neither do the workers. They riot and burn tires.
So what will the Europeans do? Go with incentives (as Detroit is doing) and give away the profits? Find some sneaky way of protection? Import from China? Restructure? Squeeze the partsmakers? Boost productivity and quality? Or just lose the business, as Detroit did?
We'll see what they learned from Detroit's mistakes.
04-28-04 | 10:47 AM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
AS much as I love Lexus, don't underestimate the German cars. I am sure they will figure out how to make their cars better quality. Don't understimate people who DESIRE stuff they don't know about ALA the famous ROUNDEL or BENZ TRI-STAR.
AS much as I love Lexus, don't underestimate the German cars. I am sure they will figure out how to make their cars better quality. Don't understimate people who DESIRE stuff they don't know about ALA the famous ROUNDEL or BENZ TRI-STAR.
Sometimes you advance by going back to your roots.
04-29-04 | 08:23 PM
#12
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,854
Likes: 0
From: IL
Originally posted by LexusLuver
I agree.
BMW 3-series will take a huge sales hit once the new IS hits the streets.
I agree.
BMW 3-series will take a huge sales hit once the new IS hits the streets.
And for those of you who do not have wood steering wheels (including Mr. Autospies (001) who drives a 745Li), THEY SUCK. Trust me, if I lease another Lexus, I will special order it to make sure it does not have a wood steering wheel. Cold and slippery in the winter, incredibly hot to the touch in the summer. Sure it may look good, but from a functional standpoint, it ranks up there with I-Drive.
04-29-04 | 08:29 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14,523
Likes: 3
From: new jersey
Re: MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi- Dead men walking?
Originally posted by Overclocker
?
It took the team at Mercedes about six years to figure out that customers will buy a Lexus over a Benz because it had a wooden steering wheel standard!
Up until recently, you had to buy the S600 to get that feature...
!"
?
It took the team at Mercedes about six years to figure out that customers will buy a Lexus over a Benz because it had a wooden steering wheel standard!
Up until recently, you had to buy the S600 to get that feature...
!"
04-29-04 | 08:40 PM
#14
Super Moderator
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,120
Likes: 231
From: Canada
Re: Re: MB, Porsche, BMW, VW and Audi- Dead men walking?
Originally posted by T.L.W.
Is this true????
Is this true????
Last edited by Gojirra99; 04-29-04 at 08:49 PM.
04-29-04 | 10:44 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, I don't think wood steering wheels are such a big deal, though I think Lexus did make a GREAT move offering them. It does feel luxurious.
From my understanding, Infiniti wood wheels are plood, not real wood.
WIth Benz/BMW, everything is an option, probably like a grand. I know the LExus wood wheel is $300 when bought new.
ANd to go with doug999, a wood wheel does slip for those that push their cars. u have to wear driving gloves.
From my understanding, Infiniti wood wheels are plood, not real wood.
WIth Benz/BMW, everything is an option, probably like a grand. I know the LExus wood wheel is $300 when bought new.
ANd to go with doug999, a wood wheel does slip for those that push their cars. u have to wear driving gloves.
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