toy4two

This may put a damper on the new RX H

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0...w=wn_tophead_1

RON430

Of course the other shoe that may drop is that batteries don't last forever. Think I read somewhere that the battery pack in the Prius is on the order of 3 to $4K to replace. Really want to see the RX400h come out and get the real world mileage numbers (right now estimated to be about 60% of the EPA numbers), see how durable they are, make sure I know what hidden costs there might be, and then look at the premium and figure out if it is worth it.

O. L. T.

iTrader: (17)

yeah, i'll be at the dollar store buying a pack of duracells!

jgbnm

Over the next few years, the cost of the battery pack is expected to drop substantially. I've heard in the range of $1000 or so. The battery packs are expected to last the life of the car and come with a 150000 mile warranty.

You have to drive with thought to reach the EPA numbers, but it certainly can be done. Of course, one major advantage is that the emissions are very very low.

I'd probably buy a Prius if I drove in the town/city most of the time but on the highway, the advantatges of a hybrid are diminished.

Jon

RON430

I guess we will find out about the battery pack. There hasn't been a significant number of hybrids around yet to know how long they will last. Battery pack lasting the life of the car? I doubt it, depending on what you call the life of the car. I also sincerely doubt they will make 150,000 miles. When you reach a thousand cycles on rechargeables, a lot of them have developed some real problems. The nature of the hybrid may mask that issue, you just spend more time on the gas engine, but I would like to wait and see how they develop. If you get one and find out that the battery pack needs to be replaced something like every four or five years, my guess is you wouldn't be able to give a four year old hybrid away.

I can't speak to the issue of attaining the MPG with hybrids because I only know three people who have them. And the 60% fraction of the EPA numbers are in the ball park for them. The rumors on the RX 400h are 35 to 38 MPG and the 60% multiplier runs that down to the low 20's. That may not be enough to justify the premium and potential costs. If they can get that puppy to the 30 MPG range in the real world, things are a lot different.

LB Lex

Sounds like it's a problem with the EPA's testing procedures, they don't test the actual fuel (energy) consumed, instead they test what comes out of the tailpipe and extrapolate mpg, so hybrid vehicles can skew the results of the tests. Looks like the EPA needs to come up with a new way to test these new vehicles.

RON430

There have always been issues with the EPA testing. Don't think anyone has ever seen an EPA number that has been low relative to the real world. It also seems like the errors get worse with higher MPG vehicles. But you could be correct that the hybrids present even more of a challenge.

For now I don't believe the hybrids come close to the EPA mileage under any conditions and there have been reports, like Consumer Reports and WSJ, that have pretty much documented some big differences. And with the reported complaints and web sites, you have to believe the manufacturers are aware of this but don't seem to be very interested in correcting the numbers as long as there are so many folks lined up to buy the things. Because of a potential move, an SUV might be in my future and I like the RX a lot. The hybrid could really make a difference. But I really want to wait until it is out and there is some more hard info on them. Low 20s might still be pretty good but it also might not be enough for me to pay the premium over a pure gas version. Having turned into an automotive coward (bimmers will do that to you), about the only manufacturer I would consider making a purchase incorporating an advanced technology, would be Toyota, but still want to just watch for a while.

HarrierAWD

MPG alone might not justify the premium, but the added performance helps. Unlike the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight with wimpy motors, the RX400h comes with the standard V6 plus the electric motor. It will give the RX400h V8-like acceleration with better fuel economy. That's the selling point.

mmarshall

For high-MPG, diesels probably make better sense in the long run than hybrids. They get roughly the same mileage, are MUCH less complex, cheaper to produce, cheaper to repair, make a LOT of torque at low RPM's...as much or more than a hybrid.....and run on much less volatile and less expensive diesel fuel. The question of long-term reliability of battery packs, even though factory warrantied to 100K and more, is still open. And........what scares me the most about hybrids..........in a rear-end impact, having a lot of potential sparks from the battery pack right over the fuel tank behind the rear seat. If the fuel tank ruptures and the battery pack sparks.........need I say more?

BurnishedGoldRX

I actually heard a story on NPR about the MPG numbers on hybrids. Due to the gas shortage of the '70s, the EPA pushed through a law that said car manufacturers could only publish their EPA test MPG in their advertising. They did it to keep auto companies from inflating them higher, but in modern times it actually prevents them from advertising 'real world'(lower) numbers that are occuring on the hybrids.

RON430

Hey, at least there's a great out if any customers file lawsuits about their hybrid coming up short. The gov made me publish those erroneous numbers.

I didn't hear the NPR story but I am getting concerned that the RX400h might not be worth the premium or the wait. There might be more horsepower to play with, there might not. After all the numbers combine the electric and gas engine outputs but that may or may not translate into better performance. All things being equal, in the gas engines at least, the pure gas version doesn't have to haul around the 50 hp electric motor and the battery pack. Those first car reviews are going to be interesting.

BurnishedGoldRX

FYI, here's the URL to the story on NPR. Interesting stuff.

Hybrid cars and EPA MPG estimates