Ice350

iTrader: (1)

I'll tell ya one thing...if Lexus really does create a high performance division like the bmw-m and amg, the other manufacturers better look out. Just think of it, 450hp in a reliable car like Lexus. I can't see anyone buying a benz or bimmer performance car after that.

LexFather

Danny Clements said it best. Yeah we want to be sportier and offer a more diverse product but currently, selling 260k vehicles a year and being the best selling (4 years) and most reliable car, well we are clearly selling products people want.
I disagree 100%. B/C they can't even pass Toyota, let alone Lexus. It's harder to make a rattle free dash that will last 10 years than an engine that makes 500hp. And with most companies just concentrating on marketing to dumb people and 0-60 this and that and 1,000 horsepower this and that, quality is on the back burner because they are selling cars more than before. Why fix quality?
Clearly Benz pro-claimed years ago they would and nothing has happened (its gotten worse). Acura is more concerned with making FWD cars so powerful u think your being pulled by a dog sled than a tranny that can handle the power. BMW is plain ol arrogant. The others are of no threat to anyone.
Infiniti has top notch quality but can't be mentioned in a conversation without a blank stare.

These other companies are worried about their bottom line and continue to squeeze suppliers into making things cheaper and cheaper. This KILLS your quality. Toyota is the only company that WORKS with suppliers and creates SOLUTIONS with them.I think in Europe that is fine since I-4s are needed (gas prices) and ALL luxury car makers sell I-4 cars there. But in America, oh heck no. Hate to use Acura again but they are the only ones selling tons of cars in the 20-30k market. That is NO place for a luxury car maker. That is for Toyota, Honda, Chevy, Ford, Kia, etc. etc. Not here.
Remember the BMW 318 hatchback? The current C230 Benz hatchback. Laughable luxury cars.

Lexus needs to move forward with hybrids, AWD, and going UPSCALE. As we get wealthier we are not going to move for IS to AS or GS to AS. We move from GS to LS and IS to GS etc etc. And they have done a GREAT job with SUVs. I may knock them (we may knock them) but if Lexus did not offer them from 35k-70k (a FANTASTIC job) I'd bought my mother something else besides an RX. Amen brother. I agree.

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

Hey 1sicklex,
nice job on the reply.

mmarshall

Even before these projects, Lexus is finally addressing something this fall it has needed for quite some time....an AWD sedan....in the new GS. The AWD, I think, is needed even more in the IS...but we'll have to wait some more for that.
I'm with you on a competitive Lexus F1 team.....I'm tired of seeing Shumacher and Ferrari dominate race after race. It's like Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt (before his death) dominating NASCAR tracks....gets a litle stale after awhile.

Faraaz23

Are we really going to have to wait until 2007 for our Halo car? If its going to be drawing hype for that many years still.... it better be THE BEST thing in its niche otherwise it will be a very big dissapointment. I think Lexus previously has tried evoke an image of sportiness, but hasn't gone all the way. While the IS is a very sporty car.... it still doesn't quite have the driving feel or grip of a 3-series. Same thing with the GS (correct me if I'm wrong, but the e-brake is a foot pedal and not a hand-held.... that kinda takes some drifting or donut fun away). And L-tuned models were nothing close to being M or AMG modifications.

I think the LS, IS, GS, and SC should all be offerend in the future with the normal luxury variants. In addition, there should be an optional sport package (not just Sportdesign which is basically different color offerings) that includes bigger and better looking wheels (wider in the back a la AMG and M sport packages), slightly lower and stiffer suspension, beefier brakes, aero/lip kit. This way the people who still want the very plush ride can have it... and those who are cross-shopping with the german toys can have a Lexus option that is truly sporty. I believe that there is enough of a market who would be willing to give up a little but of softness in ride for a better handling/more fun to drive vehicle.

jet864

First of, Faraaz, I'm 17 and the IS is definately NOT my favorite Lexus car. I'm just enamoured by the LS430 with optional 18" 5 spoke rims. Mica on black....Mmmm. Anyways, I think that the age of the average Lexus owner has really begain to creep up, and be a lot higher than anyone at the Lexus camp would like. I mean, yesterday, no joke, I saw a 70 yr old man and his wife getting into their brand new SportDesign ES330 What gives?

Looking at the LF-C I can not picture some old blue hair cruising around with her cats. It is a young person car, but most likely priced with the other models. Youth is a much needed variable in the Lexus situation.

1Sick, I think what you said was absolutely on par, especially about the shortcoming s of the other manufacturers. What bad could be said about Lexus? They're boring designs, and not sporty enough? Thats all gonna change within the next few years, as long as they do something they haven't in a while; TAKE A CHANCE.

James

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

I was talking to my jeweler the other day. A friend of his has put a deposit down on the LF-C. The friend is in his sixties. Plus, most of the people driving the sc430 are older. Old people want to have fun too. I will when I get old.

mmarshall

You're not alone, jet. I was the same way at your age...I liked both luxury AND muscle cars.....like your Grand National and the LS430 that you mention. The stereotype that young people can't drive luxury cars or that old people can't drive sporty cars is a bunch of nonsense. So is the idea that small convertibles are just for females or that Saabs and Volvos are just for tree-huggers...or that minivans are just for soccer-moms.

Faraaz23

Well, I think you guys are missing my point a little bit... I'm not saying that young people don't like luxury and muscle.... I love those too. These days, many people don't equate the LS430 as both luxury and muscle when there are insanely powerful MB's, M5's and RS6's running around the streets... although the 6-speed LS is very quick for a 4.3L fullsize luxury sedan. And I think most of us would agree that the LS has more of a conservative design than its competitors. I know most of us here like the current Lexus lines... but business is about growth... which partly means getting new customers. I agree with Jet that Lexus has to take a chance and do something a little more bold... which they seem to be planning on doing in the next few years.

jet864

Bad news...no GN for me anymore. I'm keeping the Lex. Maintenance time!

Anywho...getting back on topic. From the concept drawings the LS500GT and GS350GT do look very different and bold. Hopefully they will indicate the future of Lexus!

James

Xenthar

I think that lexus is headed the right way with performance--introducing hydrids and awd, but the styling is just not there yet. The designs are still a little bland and unexciting. The upcoming GS is okay looking. I don't know how it will do against the new RL and M45, but to me, it doesnt win in the 'looks' category. The Lf-C concept looks a little too overboard or too futuristic looking. As of right now, lexus offers no real performance car unless you want to consider the IS a performance car. Otherwise, lexus basically just offers good reliability and top notch interior materials.

Hermosa

Who can argue with a 600(400NA/200E)HP LS500GT and 470(300NA/170E)HP GS350GT hybrids ? I am waiting on the what the SC will be like. Hopefully the SC will not be absorbed into the IS line since the IS is slated to have a sports car model.

MikeP

I was never a big fan of Lexus styling, but in July I bought an '04 LS430. I bought it because I had owned several other brands after my last Lexus, a '98 LS400. The "other" cars I bought had more eye appeal, at least to me, but they all had reliability and service issues. I bought the LS430 because I knew it would be faultless and the service first class. Well, after owning my LS430 for a little over 3 months now, I have grown to appreciate the styling. I like the large glass area, allowing great visibility, the high roof line giving excellent headroom and the shape of the hood, which gives a feeling of driving a smaller car that it actually is. I think years from now, the LS430 will still look good, just like the previous LS generations.

The growing trend in today's design is to raise the beltline, like the Chrysler 300 and MB CLS. I hope Lexus doesn't follow that trend. Sitting in the Chrysler 300 gave me the feeling of looking out of a bunker, very dark and claustrophobic, while the current LS is airy and open. I also hope Lexus doesn't allow their designers unlimited freedom to express themselves, like Bangle has done with BMW. I think Bangle designed more for other designers than for BMW customers.

I agree it's time for Lexus to become more contemporary in its styling. I'll have to wait and see the new GS on the street before I pass judgement. I saw the GS at the New York Auto show and was disappointed. SInce that environment is artificial, the GS might look better in the real world. The opposite happened for me with the Acura RL. I thought it was one of the best designs at the show, but then seeing it on the street, it looks bland and unimpressive.

I hope that Lexus continues it's evolutionary styling changes rather than changing it's styling theme altogether. I think that's why Bangle's BMW's lost so many BMW enthusiasts. It's tough to see the lineage in the current designs with past BMW's. I think Lexus needs that continuity of design because it has to continue building a heritage.

Mike

Dynasty SC

i dont like the way lexus is going in terms of styling... they build good cars.. no doubt they are reliable... but IMO they are getting uglier... i dont find lexus as visually appealing as mercedes... and BMW has the superior drivability.... i personally find the LS rather ugly, the current ES looks like a camry, and the new GS looks like an avalon.... not only is lexus losing its VIP status, they are voluntarily changing their cars to resemble their cheaper counterparts. mercedes offers the most in terms of reputation as a luxury builder and always has.... this is a large part of the puzzle because selling new cars is like selling dreams.... do you NEED a new car? i dont think so... you want one to stay with the times. BMW of course has some of the best driving cars made... including the best driving sedan. i am personally inclined to go with infiniti rather than lexus at this point... i find infiniti to be more exclusive and different.. just because you dont see as many of them on the streets. except for the G35..

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Great thread! Not surprisingly though, I agree with about everything that 1SickLex said. I'll just make a few points here, and anyone can feel free to agree/disagree.

- I actually don't think this new styling direction is as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. For the first 14 years of their existance, Lexus as a company has been focused on selling cars, and in turn making profit. Obviously, that's the same force that drives any company but now that Lexus has turned 14, has proved to be one of the top luxury marques in the industry, and has a more than loyal customer base, they are ready to take it to the next level. At this point, they have proven that they as a company can do it, and now are in the process of refining themselves, and in effect, they can focus on themselves as a brand and create a brand identity. To date, Lexus models have been connected primarily by the badges on their hoods, and the company NEEDS a new design language with family resemblance in all of their models to make it into the same arena as Mercedes and BMW. What I'm saying is that I think this is only evolution rather than a revolution like many people on here are making it out to be. They have spent the last 14 years making great cars, but at this point they are prepared financially and physically to take the next step as a brand and create exceptional cars by tieing modern design and emotional appeal into their already legendary reliability, quality, and luxury.

- The next thing that I want to address is performance. Right now, the trend is to cram as much power under the hood of a vehicle as is humanly possible. Well, unfortunately for all of the AMG and M fans, I have some bad news. There comes a point where additional power isn't going to help performance at all, and in some instances, will just hurt it. It varies car to car, but the truth is that the 2006 M5 isn't really THAT much faster than the old model. There exists a limit where so much power is going to help performance, and after that, it's just dead weight. A 450HP car might be as fast 0-60 and 1/4 mile as one with 650HP; it has a lot more to do with tuning, suspension, gearing, and weight than raw power numbers. Everyone here is unhappy because the new GS430 will be making the same 300HP as before. However, if the current GS430 with "just" 300HP is faster than every other sedan it currently competes with and is just as fast in a straight line as the new 545i 6spd, why does the new car need more power? Maybe for bragging rights, but as far as "seat-of-your-pants" performance, the new GS will be able to keep up wih, and probably beat, the top sedans in it's class. Again, the number of people who are actually concerned with performance, even when buying V8 models of a car that comes standard with a smaller engine, is miniscule. In fact, I believe there are more people who march into a BMW or Mercedes dealership and buy an M5 or E55 because they can rather than the fact that they read that it tore asphault in the latest issue of Car and Driver. Don't get me wrong, to some of the people who buy these vehicles performance is very important, and Lexus should and will have models to cater to those people, but the whole horsepower war has been blown sadly out of proportion. When creating their new AMG/M style cars, Lexus needs to concentrate on raw performance numbers and focus on making their cars more performance oriented than lower models (i.e. a GS "GT" should be faster than a GS430), and competitive with models of other makes, NOT just horsepower numbers. AMG is actually at a point where they are putting more horsepower into their cars than will EVER be used. In fact, Mercedes has blown so much R&D money on AMG that they have let other areas of their business suffer, quality being the biggest downfall. Thankfully, Lexus is not a company that has not, and would not let that happen.

- Lastly, Lexus needs to look towards the future and thankfully they are. Creating a design language that is unique to the brand and is shared amongst models contributes to the desireability factor, which in turn helps the brand image, which in turn helps resale, prestige, and many other factors. Creating a family resemblance and throwing in a few "halo" models like a top end sedan and a sports car will be the last two steps that the company needs to take to really be considered in the same light as BMW and Mercedes Benz. Lexus already dominates the luxury classes that they compete, and once they take it to the next level as a brand, the competitors will be in for an even harder time.

-Michael-