Self-Driving Vehicles
03-12-17, 05:18 PM
#406
Lexus Fanatic
Modern skid control systems basically take control away from the driver at this point anyways
03-12-17, 05:40 PM
#407
Lexus Champion
One thing (among many) that concerns me with self-driving vehicles is how they will will cope with icy roads and salt/abasives. ABS can prevent wheel lock-up, but won't necessarily help you stop any quicker. Even if the automatic cruise-control will keep a set distance from the car in front (and that alone will limit how many vehicles can actually use a certain stretch of road any one given time), if a sudden stop needs to be made, and there is no escape route to either side of the car in front of you, the car may not be able to stop in time.
One way around that, of course, would be to have heating elements in the pavement that automatically melt ice without salt and abrasives (salt and abrasives could block the vision of, damage or corrode the sensors/cameras used in self-driving cars). But either designing new roads like that, or retro-fitting existing ones wold probably be too expensive and impractical, and most jurisdictions would choose not to do it.
One way around that, of course, would be to have heating elements in the pavement that automatically melt ice without salt and abrasives (salt and abrasives could block the vision of, damage or corrode the sensors/cameras used in self-driving cars). But either designing new roads like that, or retro-fitting existing ones wold probably be too expensive and impractical, and most jurisdictions would choose not to do it.
But to your point on autonomous driving and the vehicles dealing with icy slushy driving conditions - it would come down to drivers having the ability to take control back of an autonomous vehicle and practicing good judgement just like they do now (can someone turn on the neon sarcasm sign here, lol).
One possibility is spending the money instead on "friction detection vehicles" on main thoroughfares and high use roads. These are what have been in normal operation on airport runways for decades and they can detect the runway conditions during bad weather (you might be quite familiar with this mmarshall). Conditions are really bad? It gets relayed to the possibly-connected autonomous vehicle's sensor systems that friction is marginal or dangerously low and it adjusts speed and driving characteristics accordingly.
03-12-17, 06:19 PM
#409
Lexus Fanatic
One possibility is spending the money instead on "friction detection vehicles" on main thoroughfares and high use roads. These are what have been in normal operation on airport runways for decades and they can detect the runway conditions during bad weather (you might be quite familiar with this mmarshall). Conditions are really bad? It gets relayed to the possibly-connected autonomous vehicle's sensor systems that friction is marginal or dangerously low and it adjusts speed and driving characteristics accordingly.
It must be remembered, though, that, even on land-runways, aircraft are not stopped solely by the wheel-brakes....especially on slippery runways. Reverse-thrust (if equipped) on the engines/props, raising the flaps once the aircraft is settled on the runway (which cuts lift and places more weight on the tires), aerodynamic speed-brakes built into the wings, and keeping the wing's angle-of-attack high until the nose-wheel settles down all helps produce drag and slow the plane before you use the wheel-brakes to finish the job.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-12-17 at 06:23 PM.
03-12-17, 06:26 PM
#410
Yes....what you are referring to, in aviation, is called "Runway Braking Action" or "Runway Braking Conditions". I'm familiar with it (on carriers at sea, of course, landing aircraft are stopped in very short distances by hooks and arresting-wires, and braking is not an issue). I've logged a few snow-landings on runways myself (not many, as I usually flew VFR). That system is generally limited to larger airports, which have the money and resources for it.
It must be remembered, though, that, even on land-runways, aircraft are not stopped solely by the wheel-brakes....especially on slippery runways. Reverse-thrust (if equipped) on the engines/props, raising the flaps once the aircraft is settled on the runway (which cuts lift and places more weight on the tires), aerodynamic speed-brakes built into the wings, and keeping the wing's angle-of-attack high until the nose-wheel settles down all helps produce drag and slow the plane before you use the wheel-brakes to finish the job.
It must be remembered, though, that, even on land-runways, aircraft are not stopped solely by the wheel-brakes....especially on slippery runways. Reverse-thrust (if equipped) on the engines/props, raising the flaps once the aircraft is settled on the runway (which cuts lift and places more weight on the tires), aerodynamic speed-brakes built into the wings, and keeping the wing's angle-of-attack high until the nose-wheel settles down all helps produce drag and slow the plane before you use the wheel-brakes to finish the job.
03-12-17, 06:37 PM
#411
Lexus Fanatic
A computer that you carry in your pocket that interacts with you verbally? Hahaha. Crazy talk.
03-12-17, 06:55 PM
#412
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/t...they.html?_r=0
http://fortune.com/2017/01/18/apple-texting-driving-2/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...rivers-phones/
This is one of the best answers for texting and driving right now. I use a smartphone extensively and I don't have a single problem with this. I can remember a time when handheld cellphones as we know them were not a reality and I had to use paper maps and notes to carefully plan out my long trips. I also started driving at a time when simpler handheld cellphones were common and texting was just coming into common use.
With as many external handsfree or head unit control options that are available to still use essential voice calling, voice recognition to text, virtual assistants (Siri, etc) and near handsfree data entry for GPS mapping clients on smart phones, I'd consider this a fair tradeoff for both safety and significantly reducing distracted driving from cellphone use.
If your screen does nothing when you fumble with it in your hand above a certain speed or in whatever situation this technology can "tell" that you are operating a car then you cannot stay glued to it when you should be focused on driving. Autonomous cars will be among us no matter what but interest in driving will be the main determiner of where generations ahead will stand on this. And of course no two people are alike so... there will always be some people who want to go to the extra effort to undergo driving evaluation and become certified to drive certain classes of vehicles or at least private passenger vehicles.
In a couple years or three if handheld devices simply lock you out when operating a vehicle and breathalyzer ignition interlocks that simply disallow inebriated driving at the ignition stage then that's two major contributors to driving hazards on the part of human beings that will be theoretically eliminated... without self-driving car technology. The rest of the onus is on actual driver skill, experience and willingness to pay attention. But years of constant driving experience is what will have to be built up to become better at something no longer absolutely required.
I imagine driving tests might become more stringent but perhaps not egregiously so (think German driver training and certification). Still, if this is an elective and not mandatory form of driver evaluation and certification and perhaps with some more cost... not everyone will jump to be signed up for it. That's okay, I think. I just would hope the option remains available always at your DMV and/or through private driver schools.
I really do think it will be a divided debate however and one with different origins for anyone born into an era where driving a new car themselves in full manual mode or driving a "vintage" car will be elective choice with certain hoops that will have to be jumped through.
Realistically and legislatively I certainly hope it doesn't become economically inaccessible due to high insurance for having a DIY driving license, vintage car, new car that has a steering wheel, etc. Or worse, not an act or privilege that is valued and supported. The interest in driving for fun will always be there but will it be made difficult to be allowed to with proper training, vetting and initial observation is what I wonder about.
It will become an optional thing no doubt but I think enthusiasm for all manual driving ALL the time will begin to be localized into groups that like certain types of vehicles and not the most common ones used for the most routine of trips. Some people will want nothing to do with manual driving. I think there will always be some people who do and will enjoy the experience for its own sake in any situation.
Autonomous technology is really no good if it cannot tolerate human drivers and unpredictable obstacles around it at all times anyway.
Some people think I'm ridiculous when I tell them I don't mind a manual transmission car in heavy city traffic (I don't). I can see that being looked at with utter dumbfounded disbelief a few generations from now. I'll still do it of course (even if that manual gearbox is bolted to an electric motor) and will be considered a crazy older guy who does utterly baffling things that make no sense to most younger people. Except maybe some
http://fortune.com/2017/01/18/apple-texting-driving-2/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...rivers-phones/
This is one of the best answers for texting and driving right now. I use a smartphone extensively and I don't have a single problem with this. I can remember a time when handheld cellphones as we know them were not a reality and I had to use paper maps and notes to carefully plan out my long trips. I also started driving at a time when simpler handheld cellphones were common and texting was just coming into common use.
With as many external handsfree or head unit control options that are available to still use essential voice calling, voice recognition to text, virtual assistants (Siri, etc) and near handsfree data entry for GPS mapping clients on smart phones, I'd consider this a fair tradeoff for both safety and significantly reducing distracted driving from cellphone use.
If your screen does nothing when you fumble with it in your hand above a certain speed or in whatever situation this technology can "tell" that you are operating a car then you cannot stay glued to it when you should be focused on driving. Autonomous cars will be among us no matter what but interest in driving will be the main determiner of where generations ahead will stand on this. And of course no two people are alike so... there will always be some people who want to go to the extra effort to undergo driving evaluation and become certified to drive certain classes of vehicles or at least private passenger vehicles.
In a couple years or three if handheld devices simply lock you out when operating a vehicle and breathalyzer ignition interlocks that simply disallow inebriated driving at the ignition stage then that's two major contributors to driving hazards on the part of human beings that will be theoretically eliminated... without self-driving car technology. The rest of the onus is on actual driver skill, experience and willingness to pay attention. But years of constant driving experience is what will have to be built up to become better at something no longer absolutely required.
I imagine driving tests might become more stringent but perhaps not egregiously so (think German driver training and certification). Still, if this is an elective and not mandatory form of driver evaluation and certification and perhaps with some more cost... not everyone will jump to be signed up for it. That's okay, I think. I just would hope the option remains available always at your DMV and/or through private driver schools.
I really do think it will be a divided debate however and one with different origins for anyone born into an era where driving a new car themselves in full manual mode or driving a "vintage" car will be elective choice with certain hoops that will have to be jumped through.
Realistically and legislatively I certainly hope it doesn't become economically inaccessible due to high insurance for having a DIY driving license, vintage car, new car that has a steering wheel, etc. Or worse, not an act or privilege that is valued and supported. The interest in driving for fun will always be there but will it be made difficult to be allowed to with proper training, vetting and initial observation is what I wonder about.
It will become an optional thing no doubt but I think enthusiasm for all manual driving ALL the time will begin to be localized into groups that like certain types of vehicles and not the most common ones used for the most routine of trips. Some people will want nothing to do with manual driving. I think there will always be some people who do and will enjoy the experience for its own sake in any situation.
Autonomous technology is really no good if it cannot tolerate human drivers and unpredictable obstacles around it at all times anyway.
Some people think I'm ridiculous when I tell them I don't mind a manual transmission car in heavy city traffic (I don't). I can see that being looked at with utter dumbfounded disbelief a few generations from now. I'll still do it of course (even if that manual gearbox is bolted to an electric motor) and will be considered a crazy older guy who does utterly baffling things that make no sense to most younger people. Except maybe some
03-12-17, 08:24 PM
#413
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Yes, this would undoubtedly be the best solution, but Apple and the other makers of these devices are cash-rich companies who pay lobbyists to make sure these laws aren't enacted. Just imagine the money they would lose on the minutes their customers aren't using texting while driving. Unfortunately, safety is taking a back seat to profits these days.
Making phones inoperable while driving just 'moves the penny' to another distraction, like geez, let me name a hundred.
or do you propose just blocking texting, or maybe just typed input? How would the phone be able to know it's blocking a driver and not a passenger? all irrelevant of course since all that and more can be done by voice TODAY.
03-12-17, 08:51 PM
#415
Lexus Fanatic
These solutions will all come in time. Technology is rapidly advancing, the roadblocks we have today won't be roadblocks in the future.
03-12-17, 09:19 PM
#416
Yes, this would undoubtedly be the best solution, but Apple and the other makers of these devices are cash-rich companies who pay lobbyists to make sure these laws aren't enacted. Just imagine the money they would lose on the minutes their customers aren't using texting while driving. Unfortunately, safety is taking a back seat to profits these days.
Of course it would not be perceived as popular move for their phones to begin locking out screen input when they can detect they are being used by the driver of an automobile. But it would be safer to do so if safety if the prime concern.
I understand and fully accept the industry-led paradigm shift that makes autonomous cars a reality and I think their existence and use will be GOOD things overall... but it does seem obvious to me that if it were ONLY safety behind the wheel at least Apple might have implemented a Beta of their driver detection technology which they have already developed but have chosen not to roll out even in limited trials to see just how effective it is int he real world. No word on whether or not Google has developed a similar technology but it would be silly to assume they haven't given it at least some engineering time.
Again... I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be pursuing autonomous tech. It just seems as if this other issue is something they can at least try to address just as aggressively as their autonomous vehicle development it would make a better case for a concern for safety overall and cut down on the introduction of driver distraction due to taking one's eyes off the road to mess with a phone rather than just issuing commands to it with your voice. The latter is still a distraction but not nearly on the same level as looking away from the road and using a touchscreen.
I see all manner of vehicles coexisting, both manually driven and autonomous. If autonomous cars cannot handle that mix then the tech isn't yet good enough. I also see it being a safer driving environment if phone distraction and DUI's are simply very limited as handhelds and ignitions don't allow either to happen without a lot of difficult trickery that would hardly be worth it.
I'm not so sure that fits with the business models of Apple, Google/Waymo, Uber, etc. despite the extraordinary positives of their self-driving technologies overall.
phone makers don't make money on 'minutes' though (i think you mean text messages anyway) and since most plans are 'unlimited' these days there's no additional revenue in texts done while driving.
Making phones inoperable while driving just 'moves the penny' to another distraction, like geez, let me name a hundred.
or do you propose just blocking texting, or maybe just typed input? How would the phone be able to know it's blocking a driver and not a passenger? all irrelevant of course since all that and more can be done by voice TODAY.
Making phones inoperable while driving just 'moves the penny' to another distraction, like geez, let me name a hundred.
or do you propose just blocking texting, or maybe just typed input? How would the phone be able to know it's blocking a driver and not a passenger? all irrelevant of course since all that and more can be done by voice TODAY.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 03-12-17 at 09:31 PM.
03-12-17, 09:44 PM
#417
Technology is advancing, but there are certain technologies that have pretty much hit a brick wall. For instance tech like speech recognition, hand writing recognition, or even text to speech - these technologies have advanced to a point, and then got stuck in a half assed state because they exhausted their potential and reached the practical limit. Same will happen with self driving cars, we will never have self driving cars that do not require a human drivers.
03-13-17, 06:37 AM
#418
Lexus Fanatic
I think you're being a little naive. You're saying that in 50 years we will never have better speech recognition than we do now? 100 years from now? You seem unable to look past the limitations we have today. Look at what we had 50 years ago and compare that to what we have today. To somebody 50 years ago the technology we have today would seem impossible.
Luckily new generations come along and aren't hindered by their own biases about what we can and can't achieve.
I have no doubt eventually we will have self driving cars. That we will have computers that we can talk to and converse with just as easily as we do another person. Just because something has "hit a wall" now, doesn't mean the advancement that will break through that wall isn't right around the corner.
Luckily new generations come along and aren't hindered by their own biases about what we can and can't achieve.
I have no doubt eventually we will have self driving cars. That we will have computers that we can talk to and converse with just as easily as we do another person. Just because something has "hit a wall" now, doesn't mean the advancement that will break through that wall isn't right around the corner.
03-13-17, 06:54 AM
#419
Pole Position
Can it react fast enough to some idiot quickly turning around in the middle of the crosswalk without looking cuz there's a rare pokemon across the street?
03-13-17, 07:20 AM
#420
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by situman
Can it react fast enough to some idiot quickly turning around in the middle of the crosswalk without looking cuz there's a rare pokemon across the street?
Also remember, you as a driver may not be able to react fast enough to that either. You too may be distracted. So all in all, it's a question of levels of safety.