Acura RL thread(new pics, A-Spec) $49,479
11-26-04, 05:19 PM
#226
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Originally posted by wantAnewLex
As for the LS430...It's easy to classify, don't you see? It's NA RWD V8 and easy to put up against the NA V8 RWD S430 or 745. Nobody compares the LS430 with its NA V8 to the V12 BMW or forced-induction Benz. Again, I'm just trying to make the point that the RL is a bizzare car by design (packaging) and hard to compare.
As for the LS430...It's easy to classify, don't you see? It's NA RWD V8 and easy to put up against the NA V8 RWD S430 or 745. Nobody compares the LS430 with its NA V8 to the V12 BMW or forced-induction Benz. Again, I'm just trying to make the point that the RL is a bizzare car by design (packaging) and hard to compare.
NA V6s should also be compared with other NA V6s (around it's price range). Hence, that's why we should NOT be comparing the RL against the bigger dogs (LS, 7-series, S class, A8, etc.).
I think Acura really put together a nice package. Will it steal sales from the 5 series crowd? Maybe not.....I'm sure a 5 series can easily out perform it. However, for your average Joe, this car has lots of the bells & whistles just like the big dogs (all standard equipment)......at a price that's more affordable. Just remember, there aren't a lot of auto enthusiasts out there. I'm sure the average Joe who wants a somewhat luxurious car isn't putting performance as their highest priority (ie. 0-60 or 1/4 mile times or how many Gs it will pull on the skidpad, etc.).
11-26-04, 05:54 PM
#227
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Originally posted by Cadd
I think Acura really put together a nice package. Will it steal sales from the 5 series crowd? Maybe not.....I'm sure a 5 series can easily out perform it. However, for your average Joe, this car has lots of the bells & whistles just like the big dogs (all standard equipment)......at a price that's more affordable. Just remember, there aren't a lot of auto enthusiasts out there. I'm sure the average Joe who wants a somewhat luxurious car isn't putting performance as their highest priority (ie. 0-60 or 1/4 mile times or how many Gs it will pull on the skidpad, etc.).
I think Acura really put together a nice package. Will it steal sales from the 5 series crowd? Maybe not.....I'm sure a 5 series can easily out perform it. However, for your average Joe, this car has lots of the bells & whistles just like the big dogs (all standard equipment)......at a price that's more affordable. Just remember, there aren't a lot of auto enthusiasts out there. I'm sure the average Joe who wants a somewhat luxurious car isn't putting performance as their highest priority (ie. 0-60 or 1/4 mile times or how many Gs it will pull on the skidpad, etc.).
Which is why a 4Matic Benz or AWD GS300 might be more attractive: Sure you get less features, but you still get AWD safety and a far more prestigious name; I can't see enthusiasts being drawn to the RL. It probably isn't going to be too mod-friendly, for one thing. In fact, a loaded G35X would probably give the RL a good run (especially since it costs far less).
I would be very interested to see how much a difference all those standard gadgets matter in terms of sales.
11-27-04, 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by wantAnewLex
Right, that's the big problem: The SH-AWD is designed to be a real performer, but like the article mentioned, most people won't take advantage of it.
Which is why a 4Matic Benz or AWD GS300 might be more attractive: Sure you get less features, but you still get AWD safety and a far more prestigious name; I can't see enthusiasts being drawn to the RL. It probably isn't going to be too mod-friendly, for one thing. In fact, a loaded G35X would probably give the RL a good run (especially since it costs far less).
I would be very interested to see how much a difference all those standard gadgets matter in terms of sales.
Right, that's the big problem: The SH-AWD is designed to be a real performer, but like the article mentioned, most people won't take advantage of it.
Which is why a 4Matic Benz or AWD GS300 might be more attractive: Sure you get less features, but you still get AWD safety and a far more prestigious name; I can't see enthusiasts being drawn to the RL. It probably isn't going to be too mod-friendly, for one thing. In fact, a loaded G35X would probably give the RL a good run (especially since it costs far less).
I would be very interested to see how much a difference all those standard gadgets matter in terms of sales.
11-27-04, 01:28 AM
#229
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Originally posted by CK6Speed
It is not hard to figure out where Honda/Acura wants to compete with the RL. It is in the same position since day one of Acura's existence in 1986 with the Legend. They have always claimed the Legend to be a BMW 5 Series competitor (Exluding the 540/545). That means back then it was the 525. When the RL came out it was the 530 which it fell way behind. Now it is the 530. Whatever the BMW 530 competes with today is what the RL competes with. Look at every single comparison test put out by magazines and Acura themselves and they have never put this car against the 545, LS400, C430. E430 and such. Even Acuras promotional test drives of the new 05 RL puts it up gainst the BMW 530 and the Mercedes C320/E320 cars. I've never seen them bring in an LS430 or 545i, or S class. So, their position has never changed. It is not meant to compete with the larger Sedans. As of now they don't have a $60K Large Sedan car.
As for Honda neverf building a V8. That is not true. They have never offered a production run V8 in their consumor cars, but they have built V8s for them in their prototype cars back as far back in the late 80s. In the case of the NSX, they had full working prototypes with V8s, Twin Turbo V6s, various other V6s and such. The end decision was to use VTEC on their V6 so that is what it came out to. At that time it was more than enough power to move that car in that time era. Adding the heavier V8 was dismissed. But is shows you that they do indeed try different engines and configurations and then make a dicision after that.
Yes, you can say it hurts the image of Acura to not offer a V8. What car selles better though? The GS300 or tge GS430? The Mercedes C320 or the C430? The BMW 545i or the 530i? From all the years past it appears the smaller 6 cylinder versions of each vehicle seem to outsell their V8 big brothers. YOu can say Acura is in no mans land with the RL. I think that is perfect. They are appealing to all those V6 buyer who passed over the lager V8 options. They will not bring in potential LS430 or S Class buyer but they will surely bring in any potential owner looking to spend about $50K on a Luxury car. How many will they actually snag is up to debate, but I bet they do snag a lot of them. I garantee you will see a lot of potential 5 Series BMW owers choosing the RL over the BMW. Just read some of the BMW forums and you see after the Bangled 5 Series the RL does get favarable style points with them compared to the BMW. A test drive between the 530 and RL probably would swing many to the RL.
As for not having a RWD, I pesonally could not tell any difference betwen my RWD cars and this AWD RL. It is stated that is has about 70% FWD bias when cruising on the highway. In that situation it doesn't matter if one wheel is driving the car since you are cruising. It can direct up to 70% of power to the rear wheels when needed. That means it acts as a RWD biased AWD car under acceleration or when the rear needs it. It can direct up to 100% power side to side to any given outside wheel as well as 70% front to rear at the same time. All told, there is no hint of any FWD bias on this car when I drove it. No torque steer, perfectly balanced cornering, and no uneasy oversteer. This car does not behave like a FWD car or a FWD biased AWD car. It simply goes where you want it to go.
It is not hard to figure out where Honda/Acura wants to compete with the RL. It is in the same position since day one of Acura's existence in 1986 with the Legend. They have always claimed the Legend to be a BMW 5 Series competitor (Exluding the 540/545). That means back then it was the 525. When the RL came out it was the 530 which it fell way behind. Now it is the 530. Whatever the BMW 530 competes with today is what the RL competes with. Look at every single comparison test put out by magazines and Acura themselves and they have never put this car against the 545, LS400, C430. E430 and such. Even Acuras promotional test drives of the new 05 RL puts it up gainst the BMW 530 and the Mercedes C320/E320 cars. I've never seen them bring in an LS430 or 545i, or S class. So, their position has never changed. It is not meant to compete with the larger Sedans. As of now they don't have a $60K Large Sedan car.
As for Honda neverf building a V8. That is not true. They have never offered a production run V8 in their consumor cars, but they have built V8s for them in their prototype cars back as far back in the late 80s. In the case of the NSX, they had full working prototypes with V8s, Twin Turbo V6s, various other V6s and such. The end decision was to use VTEC on their V6 so that is what it came out to. At that time it was more than enough power to move that car in that time era. Adding the heavier V8 was dismissed. But is shows you that they do indeed try different engines and configurations and then make a dicision after that.
Yes, you can say it hurts the image of Acura to not offer a V8. What car selles better though? The GS300 or tge GS430? The Mercedes C320 or the C430? The BMW 545i or the 530i? From all the years past it appears the smaller 6 cylinder versions of each vehicle seem to outsell their V8 big brothers. YOu can say Acura is in no mans land with the RL. I think that is perfect. They are appealing to all those V6 buyer who passed over the lager V8 options. They will not bring in potential LS430 or S Class buyer but they will surely bring in any potential owner looking to spend about $50K on a Luxury car. How many will they actually snag is up to debate, but I bet they do snag a lot of them. I garantee you will see a lot of potential 5 Series BMW owers choosing the RL over the BMW. Just read some of the BMW forums and you see after the Bangled 5 Series the RL does get favarable style points with them compared to the BMW. A test drive between the 530 and RL probably would swing many to the RL.
As for not having a RWD, I pesonally could not tell any difference betwen my RWD cars and this AWD RL. It is stated that is has about 70% FWD bias when cruising on the highway. In that situation it doesn't matter if one wheel is driving the car since you are cruising. It can direct up to 70% of power to the rear wheels when needed. That means it acts as a RWD biased AWD car under acceleration or when the rear needs it. It can direct up to 100% power side to side to any given outside wheel as well as 70% front to rear at the same time. All told, there is no hint of any FWD bias on this car when I drove it. No torque steer, perfectly balanced cornering, and no uneasy oversteer. This car does not behave like a FWD car or a FWD biased AWD car. It simply goes where you want it to go.
11-27-04, 01:32 AM
#230
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for all you rl haters. Just face the facts....the world is very impressed with the new acura rl/legend. It is something acura made that is an actual competitor now. So stop hating already. Its a very nice car and its clear that most car enthusiasts from various magazines like it
11-27-04, 01:34 AM
#231
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The A6 AWD has a 63/37 or so front/rear distribution. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels? In comparison, the 5, GS and E are all near 50/50.
And last I checked, the A6 AWD nor 4matic Benz were best sellers. You need RWD, AWD is not needed in the luxury segment. It does sound nice.
Finally, if you REALLY want the best of both worlds, the Caddy STS offers AWD WITH their V-8 (and V-6). As for mod friendly, the Acura RSX is mod friendly. Every other car in the lineup doesn't have much aftermarket support (maybe the TSX). The RL will probably offer just as much as it has now.
Its not a bad car at all. For 50k though, even C&D just said it, too expensive for what you get.
And last I checked, the A6 AWD nor 4matic Benz were best sellers. You need RWD, AWD is not needed in the luxury segment. It does sound nice.
Finally, if you REALLY want the best of both worlds, the Caddy STS offers AWD WITH their V-8 (and V-6). As for mod friendly, the Acura RSX is mod friendly. Every other car in the lineup doesn't have much aftermarket support (maybe the TSX). The RL will probably offer just as much as it has now.
Its not a bad car at all. For 50k though, even C&D just said it, too expensive for what you get.
11-27-04, 01:42 AM
#232
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
The A6 AWD has a 63/37 or so front/rear distribution. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels? In comparison, the 5, GS and E are all near 50/50.
And last I checked, the A6 AWD nor 4matic Benz were best sellers. You need RWD, AWD is not needed in the luxury segment. It does sound nice.
Finally, if you REALLY want the best of both worlds, the Caddy STS offers AWD WITH their V-8 (and V-6). As for mod friendly, the Acura RSX is mod friendly. Every other car in the lineup doesn't have much aftermarket support (maybe the TSX). The RL will probably offer just as much as it has now.
Its not a bad car at all. For 50k though, even C&D just said it, too expensive for what you get.
The A6 AWD has a 63/37 or so front/rear distribution. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels? In comparison, the 5, GS and E are all near 50/50.
And last I checked, the A6 AWD nor 4matic Benz were best sellers. You need RWD, AWD is not needed in the luxury segment. It does sound nice.
Finally, if you REALLY want the best of both worlds, the Caddy STS offers AWD WITH their V-8 (and V-6). As for mod friendly, the Acura RSX is mod friendly. Every other car in the lineup doesn't have much aftermarket support (maybe the TSX). The RL will probably offer just as much as it has now.
Its not a bad car at all. For 50k though, even C&D just said it, too expensive for what you get.
Also, surprisingly enough, the acura tl will also get aftermarket support from mugen. Though it was only made for the american market, there are plans for aftermarket support. I dont remember what car show it was at, but i saw pictures of mugen's modded acura tl
11-27-04, 02:41 AM
#233
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
The A6 AWD has a 63/37 or so front/rear distribution. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels?
The A6 AWD has a 63/37 or so front/rear distribution. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels?
Honda is a pretty clever company, they build a limited # of vehicle but really focus on them. I think the RL is pretty sweet, other than the mismounted engine.
11-27-04, 05:55 AM
#234
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
http://www.automobear.com/AcuraRLToo...nnovative.html
Wonderful article on the RL. Wonderful as in truthful and points the negatives we have stated as well as the positives.
http://www.automobear.com/AcuraRLToo...nnovative.html
Wonderful article on the RL. Wonderful as in truthful and points the negatives we have stated as well as the positives.
Last edited by CK6Speed; 11-27-04 at 06:16 AM.
11-27-04, 06:15 AM
#235
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels? In comparison, the 5, GS and E are all near 50/50.
. The RL is 62/38. What is so sporting about having that much weight over the front wheels? In comparison, the 5, GS and E are all near 50/50.
The GS300 is about a 53/47, closer to neutral than the RL, but the RL in comparson is not grossly front heavy.
As for the size of the RL, it is larger than the current GS300/430. It has the same wheelbase, it is longer by about 4.5", it is wider by about 2". Curb weight on the RL is 3,984 lbs, while the current GS300 is at 3,649 lbs, but that does not include options. Adding the HIDs, and all the Navigation hardware will bring that weight up slightly. Over all, with the added weight of the SH-AWD system and the car coming fully loaded with all that electronic hardware the RL is not that heavy of a pig as peple make it out to be. I"m willing to bet a fully loaded 06 GS300 with AWD, HIDs, Navigation, and other options comparable to the RL will weigh in very close to what the RL weight is.
Last edited by CK6Speed; 11-27-04 at 06:43 AM.
11-27-04, 06:41 AM
#236
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Its not a bad car at all. For 50k though, even C&D just said it, too expensive for what you get.
Its not a bad car at all. For 50k though, even C&D just said it, too expensive for what you get.
Fred M.H. Gregory-When I previewed the RL for the October 2004 issue of C/D, I said it was the first Acura thata could be mentioned in the same breath as the BMW 5 -Series and Mercedes-Benz E-class. Since then, I've driven the RL back-to-back with its German rivals during our 10Best testing, and my opinion is unchanged. At the very least, the RL is as refined, comfortable, and competent as anything else in its class. And its elegantly engineered all-wheel-drive system may well be better than anything else around. My only quibble is subjective. The RL styling is merely inoffensive. When Acura does an update, it should consult an Italian.
Brock Yates-Is the Acura RL a perfect 10 in the 10Best? Within its price range, thanks to jewel-like quality and engineering brilliance, it comes close. Some of us might lop off a point for its tepid, mainstream styling that shrouds a wonderful machine in near anonymity. But counterbalance that with its dazzleing electromechanical all-wheel drive, hunky 300-hp V-6 engine, such standard gagets as a navigation system and active headlights, plus world-class handling for a four-door sedan, and it becomes obvious that, for less than 50 large, the RL is a hands-down winner.
To be fair, here is the third test drivers review.
Csaba Csere-This overdue new RL still seems hung up on the virtues of sensibility and efficiency, neigher of which is a hallmark of a flagship luxury sedan. Although its 3.5-liter V-6 makes a praisworthy 300 horsepower, the car gells a little sliggish at low revs, thanks to its lack of displacement. Inside, the RL is lavish, stylish, as well equipped, but there is barely more people and trunk space than its stablemate, the RL, or even in an Accord. The RL's chassis is unusually respoinsive for a 4030-pound sedan, thanks to its sophisticalted four-wheel-drive system. But wouldn't luxury-car buyers prefer a but more space and torque with their handling excellence?
Last edited by CK6Speed; 11-27-04 at 06:44 AM.
11-27-04, 08:08 AM
#237
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Originally posted by CK6Speed
Two of the 3 test drivers (Fred Gregory, and Brock Yates) seem to imply that RL is a winner in its class
To be fair, here is the third test drivers review.
Two of the 3 test drivers (Fred Gregory, and Brock Yates) seem to imply that RL is a winner in its class
To be fair, here is the third test drivers review.
11-27-04, 10:02 AM
#238
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I've never understood why there are so many Acura haters on this board. The disdain is so thick, you could cut it with a knife. It's worse than any other board I've ever been on, and it really lends a negative atmosphere to the board. I have to say that I do appreciate the Car Chat forum here, though, because there are lots of discussions about make A vs. make B and car X vs. car Y.
Anyway, I thought I'd weigh in with some thoughts.
WantANewLex, there were several posts where people did attack you, but sometimes they also just attacked your arguments and you construed those as personal attacks. Personal attacks are to be frowned upon, but if I say that you thinking that no V8 and FWD automatically relegates a car to "coulda been a contender" status is a childish argument, that's not attacking you. That's attacking your argument.
The new RL really is amazing. It has its flaws, with several missing features that should be on a car of its price, but I'm sure they'll start adding some features as it ages. I encourage 1SickLex and the other Lexus apologists to test drive it while trying to keep an open mind. If it helps, bring some paper cutouts of Lexus badges to paste over the Acura symbols to keep you thinking straight.
It's a spectacular car that proves you don't need a V8 to have a blast. I can nearly guarantee you all that you'd love it as much as a Lexus if it were one.
To be fair, I do think that if the next GS were exactly like the RL and offered no V8 alternative, people here would be as up in arms as they are now about the RL. Although I probably would never purchase a V8-equipped car, I can understand the mindset that a car company needs to jump through certain hoops to truly establish itself as a player in the luxury genre. Acura adding RWD and V8 options seems to me wholly unnecessary except to improve its status among the American public. For this car, a V6-hybrid would do well as competition against an NA V8, and I expect Acura to offer that in the future. RWD I do have to agree is something I'd demand, as I never bought into the AWD craze (much like I still don't buy into the SUV craze), but the Acura AWD is probably better performing than the Audi quattro system, which has been the benchmark of AWD systems for quite some time now. And if Audi can get away with FWD/AWD cars, why shouldn't Acura be able to? Besides, both AWD systems are front-biased, don't forget.
While we're on the topic of status, the salesman I spoke to yesterday told me that part of the reason why the RL is priced at nearly $50k is because they want to improve their status. Paying for great value is not really what the midsize and up luxury market is about, and while I personally would never buy something that was horribly overpriced, I wouldn't say that the RL is overpriced. I do think it would have been better to have the pricing point be closer to $48k or so, but considering how much better the new RL is vs. the old RL, the price increase was warranted.
For some Acura rumors, see this post I made in a different thread: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...5#post1113395.
Regarding luxury marque rankings, I'd agree with a previous poster that MB and BMW are still at the top. Depending on who you talk to, either Audi or Lexus will follow. German car fans and probably most car enthusiasts in general will say Audi, but probably the majority of the public still considers it to be Lexus. Excluding Cadillac, Jaguar, etc., I'd say it's MB > BMW >> Lexus/Audi >> Infiniti > Acura. Regardless, I'm loving pretty much everything coming out right now. I want to see all the car companies succeed, because it will keep costs lower (relatively). More plentiful and better and cheaper offerings is always good for the consumer.
Someone said that Lexus : Mercedes :: Infiniti : BMW. I agree it's simplistic, but I think it's the best comparison that can be made right now, if we really want to compare the German Big 3 to the Japanese Big 3. The shades of truth to the analogies are also stronger than the shades of untruth. I'd add to that Acura : Audi. Lexus is focusing on luxury and prestige, same as Mercedes. Both try to be sporting in addition, with varying degrees of success depending on the model, but the number one priority is still comfort and hoity-toityness. BMW is more about handling and performance, and Infiniti is attempting to go that route. They're largely succeeding, what with the FX and G35, and I hope the M35/45 is a rollicking success. Acura is as much quirky as Audi is, they're both the "value" contender among their respective brethren, and they both rely on FWD and AWD rather than RWD. They also both are probably considered a step down from the others. In terms of exteriors, BMW and Infiniti are going off the beaten path with their styling, MB and Lexus have more conservative designs, generally, and Acura and Audi are even more conservative still.
BTW, those of you giving props to Infiniti for their recently successful cars do realize that their rejuvenation is also recent, right? If so, why the complaints about Acura's recently highly touted cars? And the complaints that Acura went through such a dark period following initial success, didn't that AutomoBear article about Lexus and latent luxury make a similar allegation about Lexus? In terms of exterior styling, I agree that the RL is a bit bland and a Accord-like. However, a guy I met at the dealership last night told me how he loves his 2002 TL-S, hates the 2004 TL because of the boxy rear, and that he completely loves the new RL look. Even my mid-20's friend, who was with me, loved the RL's looks. Lexus design is similarly bland, although things like Altezza lights and other minor aesthetic components do, admittedly, give it a less conservative look than Acuras. But really, I understand things are relative, but a lot of denigrations leveled against Acura make me think of the pot calling the kettle black.
Wrapping up, the RL is a fantastic car. It'd have done well to be priced a tiny bit lower, so it'd have more room to grow in price as the years go on. There are niggling things that need improvement or addition, and hopefully Acura will see fit to make those changes with each successive model year. That said, I would certainly buy this car over an E-Class or 5-series, and especially if I were to have more than one car. Acura did a splendid job with this car, and I'm personally looking forward to healthy competition from the entire market for many years to come.
Anyway, I thought I'd weigh in with some thoughts.
WantANewLex, there were several posts where people did attack you, but sometimes they also just attacked your arguments and you construed those as personal attacks. Personal attacks are to be frowned upon, but if I say that you thinking that no V8 and FWD automatically relegates a car to "coulda been a contender" status is a childish argument, that's not attacking you. That's attacking your argument.
The new RL really is amazing. It has its flaws, with several missing features that should be on a car of its price, but I'm sure they'll start adding some features as it ages. I encourage 1SickLex and the other Lexus apologists to test drive it while trying to keep an open mind. If it helps, bring some paper cutouts of Lexus badges to paste over the Acura symbols to keep you thinking straight.
It's a spectacular car that proves you don't need a V8 to have a blast. I can nearly guarantee you all that you'd love it as much as a Lexus if it were one.To be fair, I do think that if the next GS were exactly like the RL and offered no V8 alternative, people here would be as up in arms as they are now about the RL. Although I probably would never purchase a V8-equipped car, I can understand the mindset that a car company needs to jump through certain hoops to truly establish itself as a player in the luxury genre. Acura adding RWD and V8 options seems to me wholly unnecessary except to improve its status among the American public. For this car, a V6-hybrid would do well as competition against an NA V8, and I expect Acura to offer that in the future. RWD I do have to agree is something I'd demand, as I never bought into the AWD craze (much like I still don't buy into the SUV craze), but the Acura AWD is probably better performing than the Audi quattro system, which has been the benchmark of AWD systems for quite some time now. And if Audi can get away with FWD/AWD cars, why shouldn't Acura be able to? Besides, both AWD systems are front-biased, don't forget.
While we're on the topic of status, the salesman I spoke to yesterday told me that part of the reason why the RL is priced at nearly $50k is because they want to improve their status. Paying for great value is not really what the midsize and up luxury market is about, and while I personally would never buy something that was horribly overpriced, I wouldn't say that the RL is overpriced. I do think it would have been better to have the pricing point be closer to $48k or so, but considering how much better the new RL is vs. the old RL, the price increase was warranted.
For some Acura rumors, see this post I made in a different thread: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...5#post1113395.
Regarding luxury marque rankings, I'd agree with a previous poster that MB and BMW are still at the top. Depending on who you talk to, either Audi or Lexus will follow. German car fans and probably most car enthusiasts in general will say Audi, but probably the majority of the public still considers it to be Lexus. Excluding Cadillac, Jaguar, etc., I'd say it's MB > BMW >> Lexus/Audi >> Infiniti > Acura. Regardless, I'm loving pretty much everything coming out right now. I want to see all the car companies succeed, because it will keep costs lower (relatively). More plentiful and better and cheaper offerings is always good for the consumer.
Someone said that Lexus : Mercedes :: Infiniti : BMW. I agree it's simplistic, but I think it's the best comparison that can be made right now, if we really want to compare the German Big 3 to the Japanese Big 3. The shades of truth to the analogies are also stronger than the shades of untruth. I'd add to that Acura : Audi. Lexus is focusing on luxury and prestige, same as Mercedes. Both try to be sporting in addition, with varying degrees of success depending on the model, but the number one priority is still comfort and hoity-toityness. BMW is more about handling and performance, and Infiniti is attempting to go that route. They're largely succeeding, what with the FX and G35, and I hope the M35/45 is a rollicking success. Acura is as much quirky as Audi is, they're both the "value" contender among their respective brethren, and they both rely on FWD and AWD rather than RWD. They also both are probably considered a step down from the others. In terms of exteriors, BMW and Infiniti are going off the beaten path with their styling, MB and Lexus have more conservative designs, generally, and Acura and Audi are even more conservative still.
BTW, those of you giving props to Infiniti for their recently successful cars do realize that their rejuvenation is also recent, right? If so, why the complaints about Acura's recently highly touted cars? And the complaints that Acura went through such a dark period following initial success, didn't that AutomoBear article about Lexus and latent luxury make a similar allegation about Lexus? In terms of exterior styling, I agree that the RL is a bit bland and a Accord-like. However, a guy I met at the dealership last night told me how he loves his 2002 TL-S, hates the 2004 TL because of the boxy rear, and that he completely loves the new RL look. Even my mid-20's friend, who was with me, loved the RL's looks. Lexus design is similarly bland, although things like Altezza lights and other minor aesthetic components do, admittedly, give it a less conservative look than Acuras. But really, I understand things are relative, but a lot of denigrations leveled against Acura make me think of the pot calling the kettle black.
Wrapping up, the RL is a fantastic car. It'd have done well to be priced a tiny bit lower, so it'd have more room to grow in price as the years go on. There are niggling things that need improvement or addition, and hopefully Acura will see fit to make those changes with each successive model year. That said, I would certainly buy this car over an E-Class or 5-series, and especially if I were to have more than one car. Acura did a splendid job with this car, and I'm personally looking forward to healthy competition from the entire market for many years to come.
11-27-04, 01:45 PM
#239
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Originally posted by Incendiary
I've never understood why there are so many Acura haters on this board. The disdain is so thick, you could cut it with a knife. It's worse than any other board I've ever been on, and it really lends a negative atmosphere to the board. I have to say that I do appreciate the Car Chat forum here, though, because there are lots of discussions about make A vs. make B and car X vs. car Y.
Anyway, I thought I'd weigh in with some thoughts.
WantANewLex, there were several posts where people did attack you, but sometimes they also just attacked your arguments and you construed those as personal attacks. Personal attacks are to be frowned upon, but if I say that you thinking that no V8 and FWD automatically relegates a car to "coulda been a contender" status is a childish argument, that's not attacking you. That's attacking your argument.
I've never understood why there are so many Acura haters on this board. The disdain is so thick, you could cut it with a knife. It's worse than any other board I've ever been on, and it really lends a negative atmosphere to the board. I have to say that I do appreciate the Car Chat forum here, though, because there are lots of discussions about make A vs. make B and car X vs. car Y.
Anyway, I thought I'd weigh in with some thoughts.
WantANewLex, there were several posts where people did attack you, but sometimes they also just attacked your arguments and you construed those as personal attacks. Personal attacks are to be frowned upon, but if I say that you thinking that no V8 and FWD automatically relegates a car to "coulda been a contender" status is a childish argument, that's not attacking you. That's attacking your argument.
I don't like Acura. Period. I have little to no respect for them, depending on the day and my mood. And it's irritating to see so much high-profile Acura discussion on a Lexus forum, especially since they're not competition in the way that MB and BMW are. That's why I come across so strongly (harshly?) with my views.
This isn't the automotive equivalent of the UN. People are quick to assert that I am not an enthusiast because I criticize some other marques, mainly Acura. Sorry, I'm not about to pander to thin-skinned politically correct people with "one love" for all cars. I have my preferences. Some people blindly discriminate against various genres of music or food categories; well, I choose to discriminate against Acura.
I defend my views by always saying that Acura isn't anywhere near the level of Lexus, BMW, or MB. You'd have to be a little off to disagree on that count.
Im not about to go back and dig up attacks against me in other threads or even further back in this one, but most recently I've been called a "hater" simply for passionately expressing my views.
[thicksarcasm] Sorry that my views don't line up with everyone else's...I guess??[/thicksarcasm]
Again, I don't remember the last time I used a word with the letters "h" "a" "t" "e" in reference to someone personally or their ideas.
The mods are just looking for a reason to ban me because, I'm sure, most of the "negative atmosphere" of this board is directly attirbutable to me.
Soooooo...Have a day?
NOTE: None of this sarcasm or bitterness is directed toward you. I often quote posts to use as reference points and then write as if I'm addressing an invisible 3rd party. Weird, I know.
Last edited by SecPole14; 11-27-04 at 04:28 PM.
11-27-04, 05:59 PM
#240
Lexus Fanatic
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I think a lot of Lexus owners like Acura because either they own or have owned one, or they're not into spending money just for 'image' and like Acura's 'value luxury' approach, even if it's supposedly not as luxurious as some brands. But a lot of this is emotional. The interiors of an E500 (not a cheap car!) or a 530 (certainly not cheap either) and certainly the IS300 are nothing to write home about - I don't really think of them as very luxurious. Some say Acura's using FWD in most models counts them out. Well what about the ES330? Is that not luxurious? And people saying the RL is not worth $50K - I don't get it. A similarly equipped *3* series is about $46K. My Legend GS was $39K *10* years ago. So a 1/3 price increase isn't worth it even though the RL has nav, 1/3 more power, AWD, much more safety equipment, almost certainly a better audio system, and probably a bunch of other things?
I think the objection to the $50K is that it's an Acura and therefore shouldn't be that expensive. Someone made a comparison of Acura and Audi - very reasonable - well an Audi A6 quattro with similar features to the RL is about $50K also.
And this is the Car Chat forum, where we discuss lots of brands, so just because this isn't a Lexus doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.
I think the objection to the $50K is that it's an Acura and therefore shouldn't be that expensive. Someone made a comparison of Acura and Audi - very reasonable - well an Audi A6 quattro with similar features to the RL is about $50K also.
And this is the Car Chat forum, where we discuss lots of brands, so just because this isn't a Lexus doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.