Xenthar

hahaha...that seems true now that i think about it

RON430

After watching this thread for a while, it appears to me that it is the Honda/Acura supporters that are really upset that now that Honda has finally updated the RL, the world isn't beating a path to their door. MB, Bimmer, and to a far lesser extent Audi and Lexus supporters have been supporters of their marques for quite a while. The fact that Honda finally replaced a severely outdated model with a more up to date one is not enough to heap praise on Honda. The market will certainly decide if the new model is going to be a commercial success. But in all honesty, the Honda/Acura supporters (and to some extent us Lexus and those Infiniti supporters) need to come to grips with the reality that our brands were not really intended to get bimmer or MB cusotmers. They were meant overwhelmingly to provide "move up" product within the brand. I look at the RL as the option for the happy Accord owner who wants to move up and stay within the goodness of Honda. I believe that both Nissan and Toyota viewed their luxury marques with this foremost in mind. The surprise was that Lexus was indeed able to get MB and Bimmer customers, although price and reliability had a lot to do with this. Without trying to start any big flaming, I am not sure Infiniti or Acura ever did that to any significant extent. Feel free to post all of your opinions but I just don't believe that someone seriously shopping for a five series is going to wind up in an RL., last year, this year, or next year.

Would I look at an RL? Not sure. I wasn't very impressed with it at the auto show. Neither was my wife and she is more likely to be looking at that type of car than I. Like I said, it looked a lot more like an Accord move up than a bimmer competitor. And I would have been more likely to look at it if the base price was 39K instead of 49K. Just a lot of competition in that range. Being different probably won't be good enough. And if Honda waits as long to update this RL as they did the last one - well, hard to be taken seriously in this end of the market if you don't commit to support it with non glacial time period improvements.

LexFather

Perfect, simply perfect.

rai

Just a note about me, as you can see, I'll buy anything. I'm not married to Honda (tho I have had 3 of them). I've owned a beemer and that's one reason I may never buy another one.

However I think Honda makes better cars (in general) than Nissan and maybe Toyota (?).

I think the previous RL was priced up near $50K just b/c Acura wanteded to posiotion it as a "luxury" car. It didn't work. I believe they sold less than 4000 RL:s last year. The new RL is slated to double that (at least).

Forget the 5-series for a minute. The new RL is far and away better than the old RL. +75hp, AWD, etc...I don't think Acura has any worries the new RL won''t sell a good number.

Is the RL as much of a "sporty" car as the 530i? not quite. But I think a lot of BMW (or MB) buyer buy it for what it says about them rather than from a desire to actually drive it rapidly. I mean the 525i has only 184hp. You could get a Focus with near as much hp. So IMO it is a wallflower. Not saying it's a bad car, but if you want a performance car you don't buy a 525i. People buy a 525i to save a few grand off the 530i or many grand off the 545i.

IMO to say the 5-series is a better car than the RL is hard. What I mean is not all peeps who buy a 5-series will drive like JPM, They buy it just for transportation. In this regard the RL is just as good or better for a lot of people.

I'm not crazy about the Accord looks or the 4000 lbs weight. Or the shorter wheelbase/longer overhangs on the RL. But it's engine (on paper) is better than any non-V8/V10 out there. Who would shed a tear if Lexus somehow managed to licence it for the GS? If anyone said they would I don't know what to say b/c there's no better V6 in the world (IMO). P-car flat-6 and BMW I6 (in the M3) have more power, but that's it. The RLs engine takes the cake. IMO.

Please note I'm not saying the RL is the best car, but to say it'd be better at $40K than $50K is a non-starter. The 525i would be a great car at $30K but at $40K not so great. However the RL at $50K is a heck of a deal next to the high $40s for the old RL. And at $50K fully loaded it's attractive next to $55K-$65K for some fully loaded E-class/5-series.

Maybe I'd rather have less standard equipment for a cheaper base car. Also it can be said getting near $50K for the RL is getting dangerously close to a no-option LS430. If that's the choice, the LS looks like a heck of a deal, but if you look at sticker prices of the 5-series or the E-class the RL looks cheap.

RON430

HMMMMM. Let's see. Can't argue with comparing the new RL to the old one. Just don't know what point you are trying to make. Is the new RL a better deal at 50K than the seriously outdated previously version was at 50K? Duh. For the folks who rushed right out last year, even if there were only 4K of them, and plunked down 50 large for the previous RL - well, any comment I could make is superfluous and basically kicking someone when they are down. But if Acura could get 4K people to lay down 50K for last year's RL, they shouldn't have any trouble doubling that. I am pretty sure I heard that they are shooting at more like 20K a year though.

I'm not saying the 5 series is better than the RL. But what I am saying is that I just don't see a significant percentage of people who are potential buyers of 5 series winding up with an RL instead. But there are people who do actively decide not to buy bimmers. I am one of them. There are people who find the seats too hard, the handling too twitchy, and the reliability - well, you know how that one goes. And this doesn't even get too the styling. But, while not as objectionable as Prince Bangles efforts, I don't find the new RL breaking any particular new ground or even looking much like a 50K plus car. And a whole lot of people look at bimmers and Mercs and say they are nice pieces but not for what they are asking for them.

As for engines and specs - there's another fire that most auto makers are more than willing to fan. Now here is some sacrilige for this site and a comment that I haven't made about looking at things at the SFO auto show but I can see why Chrysler is selling a lot of those 300C's. The styling isn't exactly my cup of tea and the interior is not near Lexus standards but I had a chance to finally drive one and I have to say, in many respects it is equal to if not superior to my GS. The 340hp hemi that can be had for the mid 30s gets that car down the quarter mile in the low 14s, about the same as my GS. But talking with a few of my old hot rod buddies, the new hemi appears to be very mod friendly and the R&D going on now with bolt on parts is proving that out. Apparently it is possible to drop 1.5 to 2.0 seconds in the quarter with bolt on parts. That just staggers my mind that with some after market parts the 300C might be in the 12s for the quarter - this is super car performance range. Do you need that performance to go buy a gallon of milk? Of course not. But considering that that performance might be available in a very decent handling comfortable sedan with maybe 5K worth of mods on a 35K car is very tempting. Will it have the build quality of a Lexus or Acura? Probably not but you have to wait and see what happens. Also have to wait and see what the new RL ends up like for reliability. Merc and bimmer are finding out about modern technology and reliability.

I also am a supporter of Honda engines. They do some very good work here. But, so does Toyota. I can't say anything about V8s because obviously Honda doesn't feel like it wants to market anything bigger than a six. The 4.3l Lexus V8 is one quality piece that is going to run for many hundreds of thousands of miles with routine maintenance only. My wife's GS3 has the inline six, which we also had in our Supra, and it has to be one of the finest sixes ever made. It is much smoother and has better power delivery than any of the bimmer sixes I owned - 2.8, 3.3, and 3.5l. Maybe the most comparable motor I could think of was the 4.2l straight six in my E type. So I wouldn't cry if Toyota licensed a Honda powerplant but I wouldn't have any clue why they would want to either.

And this brings me back to price. I don't expect anyone else to agree with my assessment but my opinion is still that at 50K plus, the RL doesn't make my radar screen for potential candidates. For those bucks I will be back to Lexus, possibly Infiniti, and maybe an european car if they can ever get their act together on reliability and pricing. And if all I am interested in is transportation, I doubt I would spend 50K plus on anything regardless of manufacturer. At 50K plus, the customer is not looking for basic transportation IMO. And yes, I agree that the stickers on bimmers and MBs have really pushed far past any notion of value. But at least I know I get very good resale with a bimmer or MB. I don't know about the RL. So here we are back again. I am not comparing the RL to either the previous RL nor the 5 series or E class where in one case you have a dreadful outdated, overpriced mistake and in the other you have ludicrously priced image cars. But then, like I said, I really don't think that Acura intends the RL to compete with the 5 and E. But is the RL worth 20K more than a hemi 300C or maybe 5K less than an LS? That might be a tough one to answer. Time will tell.

rai

Only reason I mentioned the old RL was to say, yes Acura has a history of pricing a car at a certain price b/c it's a "luxury" car and people expect to pay that much. The RL has to be priced above the old RL. I mean it doesn't have to, but it would look odd, it's twice as nice and oh by the way it's cheaper. Its hard to go backwards in price, tho the new 350Z has done that in some ways.

Also you see with the NSX it's hard for Acura to drop the price to say $50K where it would be competitive with a M3 or a Corvette. So Acura will effectivly raise the price of the RL and sell more of them. That says to me it's priced OK.

You can get a no-option LS430 for $15K less than one with every option. It'd be nice to get a no-option RL for $39K. But I guess Acura needs separation from the same size TL.

I've driven a 300 Touring. In fact I rented one for the week. I was expecting a bit more in the driving/handling department. Maybe if aftermarket or if Chrysler would fix this it's be an option, but as it is now, I won't buy one b/c it can't handle. To me it was like driving the same old American taxi/cop car with a nice interior and nice style. I haven't driven a RL yet so I can't say anything about that, but the press seems to like it a lot.

My point about the RL engine in maybe a GS is not to say Toyota can't build a nice engine. But I've owned an Odyssey and I own a Sienna and I have to tell you the Honda power was better. Bigger smoother and got better mileage and zero problems. Honda engines can run for ever. Guy with an Accord with 1 million miles. NSXs with close to 200K miles etc..

The 3.0L in the new 06 GS won't keep anyone at Honda up with nightmares. We know this. Not saying it's bad, but IMO if you ask a Honda exec if he'd rather have the best possible engine or the nicest interior he'd take the engine. Ask a Lexus exec and he'd take the interior (IMO).

Please I'm not trying to flame anybody. But if anyone thinks Honda can't build engines they don't know cars. Also I'd rather have a GS than a RL that's why I'm here at clublexus. I don't want to put Lexus down, but by the same token, I think the RL is a heck of a nice car. The more nice cars Acura can build the better Lexus will become. We all win.

RON430

Well if you don't want any flaming, I would reread the posts you are responding to. I don't think anyone is saying that Honda can't build engines (a bit of the Honda/Acura defensiveness showing?). In fact, I said I was particularly impressed with Honda's motor expertise. But then quite a few other people build good motors, including Toyota.

Last time I was exposed to that tortured an argument on pricing it was from someone explaining GM pricing to me. If Acura wants to go for non-Honda/Acura owners, I would recommend pricing relative to the outside competition and not necessarily your own models. Or is it that the RL is priced as a move up vehicle and not a bimmer competitor?

Don't think I have driven any rental car that drove like a private owner car. The 300C I drove is a hemi that a friend of mine owns. Handling was easily on a par with the stock GS, probably slightly better. Brakes also on a par, which surprised me, the stock brakes on the GS don't feel very good but stop very well. 300C is quieter than the GS. As for the RL, not sure very many people other than the magazines know how they drive.

Probably a draw on anyone staying up worried about the other. I doubt many Lexus execs will lose any sleep over the RL.

Absolutely right about the competition improving the breed. And Lexus isn't perfect, most owners here agree. Not saying there aren't posts here from those that feel Lexus can't do any wrong but as a group, the people here a lot more open minded than other boards. I have owned several Toyotas and now two Lexus over the last three years. There are certainly things I would change and maybe Lexus is going to do that in the upcoming models. Maybe not. I will look at the new GS but if they don't address some specific items I have, I will not get another. Might get an LS though. Maybe I will know someone who gets an RL and has a good experience with it. I tend to pay little attention to the magazine writers. RL may be a nice car and maybe it is priced to hold level regardless of what the yen does. Recent estimates have the dollar going to 95 yen next year (and 140 euros). If that isn't priced into the RL, it is going to edge awfully close to 60K without tax and license. Not sure who wins if that happens.

GRAND_LS 4

iTrader: (2)

I sat in one at a local car show, it has a very nice interior Much better in person though, and those seats are COMFY!!! I just dont dig the whole V6 thing Honda is acting out.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

It seems like the new RL appears smaller than it really is. It has the same 110.2" wheelbase as the current Lexus GS, it is longer than the current GS, it is wider than the current GS, and is taller than the current GS. The RL in all dimensions is a bigger can than the Lexus. I've heard previous RL owners say the new RL feels more cramped, but the new RL also has a larger speced volume interior than the old one. I think the new RL is just more intimately designed so it feels more cramped at first to some.

At first I was disappointed at the 3900+lb weight of the RL, but after driving it I don't feel the weight as I do in some other heavy cars and even some lighter cars. It feels as nimble as a 3600lb car. It doesn't accelerate like a bat out of hell, but is sure is faster than my Lexus V8.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

This brings up some interesting points. I was a BMW owner before I was a Lexus owner. The things I like about BMW is the handling of the car, the performance, and the driving feel. No, it is NOT the ultimate driving machine, but what I do like about BMW is that is has the luxury and performance/sporty driving feeling. What I hate about BMW and what made me trade mine in for a Lexus is it has down right quirky reliability and high cost of maintenence. You never new when the next problem would occur and you were always expecting something to go wrong. It is hard to enjoy ownership when you are always worried like that. To the Lexus, I love the reliability, nobody can argue about its luxuriousness in the key models (GS/LS), and it has non offensive styling. The only model I can say has bold styling is the IS300 and in a way the GS back when it was introduced in 98. That said, I am a fan of conservative styling that is why I like Lexus cars and Acura cars and hate the Bangled era BMW cars. Okay, back to the topic. As a former BMW owner I had aways planned on moving up to the E39 5 Series BMW. Praticularly the 540iA or maybe the 530iA depending on what I could afford. You can say that Lexus stole me away as a former BMW owner, but then again, I like the new RL particularly because it is right in between what BMW abnd Luxus stand for. The RL is not as performance oriented or has the driving feel of a BMW, nor does it have the Lexus appeal of pure luxury on wheels. It is a balance of the two. It is more luxurious than a BMW IMHO just based on the fact it has all those standard features and electronic gagets. Quite frankly, that is a large part of what makes a luxury car IMHO. Having technological gizmos that you probably don't need. The RL is also more sporty than the Lexus GS. Now, the GS430 definately does feel faster, but the RL feels more sporty to when driving. So, what can I say. I am a previous BMW owner who still loves the E39 5 Series cars and the RL is definately on my short list of future cars. I will probably end up with one of these cars for my nexy purchase. Either a 2003 E39 540iA, or 530 iA, an E46 2003/4 BMW M3 with SMG, a 2003 Mercedes C32 AMG, or an 05/06 RL. Now you can say I don't count since I'm buying these cars used. Well, that is true but that is a choice. I bought my 04 Lexus new and one other car in my lifetime new. Quite frankly, I don't think it is worth it with all the great CPO cars out there. I'll probably always buy a year or two old again from now on.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Let's have a little fun with this. People keep saying that the RL doesn't have enough for $50K. Okay, let's have some fun and price out comparable cars around the $50K range and see exactly what the RL is lacking or what those other cars offer for cheaper. The rules are you have to use the manufacturers suggested prices and NOT the price that you can get at your local dealer. To do this you can go the the websites and price out a car there. No lease deals for this comparison. Obviously we all can get deals here and there, that is why I say stick to MSRP to make things even. One could alwys argue the RL will be selling for anywhere between $45K and $48K once the hype dies down. You also will have to option out the car comparable to the RL for a fair comparison. Part of the reason why the RL cost what it does is because everything comes standard on it including HIDs, navigation and what not. The comparable cars will need to have these option.

Anyway, here is my contribution.

BMW 530i Sedan.
MRSP $46,095.

Options to make it comparable include:
HID headlights
Steptronic transmission
Rear Power Sunshade
Navigation
Premium Sound (I included this to make it near eqaul to the Acura DVD-A/DTS system)

Total price- $52,940.

Advantages to the RL is a more powerful V6 engine, cheaper, and some other features that BMW does not have such as real time tire pressure monitoring system, Global positioning automatic climate control, real time traffic navigation, real leather.

Some of the advantages of the BMW is slightly better handling accorind to specs, and 6-Speed automatic transmission.


This is all in fun and to really point out what the RL is lacking for the price if anything, and what the advantages the competition has for its price if any. Let's look at the hard numbers and really see if the RL is not worthy of a near $50K price. Anyone else want to price out a comparable Mercedes or Lexus or any other car you think is the RLs competiion? As it stands, I think it is exactly priced where its comparable competition is if not a little cheaper after it is all said and done.

rai

I'd bet the E320 4matic with everything wll price out over $56+K with 220(?)hp

The 06 M35 (Infiniti) with 270+hp V6 AWD and everything is around $55K

Gojirra99

You mean the M45 ?

RON430

As a previous, and who knows - maybe future, bimmer owner, I would still be very surprised if the RL seriously takes any sales away from bimmer. I haven't found many cars that have the ride/handling balamce of bimmers. In fact stock, I can't think of any. AWD has its supporters if you need the traction but I haven't been in any cars that put power down through the front wheels that match the balance of the bimmer or any good RWD. So at best I expect the RL to have Audi like handling which would be quite good but still not in the same league as the bimmer.

I guess if you shop for cars wth the brochure and list prices, you can find some reason to go for the RL.. I don't have numbers but when Toyota rolled Lexus out with the LS, they didn't price the car based on the compeition. They figured out what they needed to charge, and who knows, maybe they kept it on the lean side. But they used it to gain market share with a car that was able to compete with much pricier cars. The pricing was one of the factors that got people in to the showroom to try the LS. If the LS had been priced within a couple of K of the S or 7, I doubt Lexus would have been able to make the gains they did. Honda decided that wasn't a very good approach and instead priced a new model within a few bucks of the 530. Not just any car but (let's be honest) but THE mid sized sport sedan. When I bought my GS it was also within a few bucks of the 530. But I got a GS430 for roughly the same bucks. Obviously I wanted out from bimmer reliability and service costs but I thought I got the better car. Still do.

One nice thing is we don't actually have to decide this here. We can certainly see what sales of the new RL do relative to the competition. But once again, I do not believe Acura intends the RL to make sales at the expense of the 530 rather than giving the happy Accord owner something to move up to (which probably explains the styling). If the RL ends up being the 50K sport sedan of choice - great. It's going to have to be very good to do that.

rai

No I mean M35. You can go to the Infiniti web site and "build your own"

I went with the V6 awd since that's what the RL is..

Here's the breakdown: (I'll round-up)

before options:
M35: $42K
M35 sport : $46K
M35 AWD : 45K
M45 : $48K
M45 sport : $51K

To which you can add various option packages the largest on the M35 AWD costs $10,500 to bring the price to $56K.

This package includes : heated seats, back-up camera, pre-crash system, homelink, premium stereo, Nav system, laser curise, lane departure warning etc...

The M45 can be optioned up to $59K