Incendiary

Huh? Your last two sentences in juxtaposition don't make much sense.

RON430

Hey, another disagreement. Other than the very young and the very old, I doubt anyone knows what Maybach is all about. MB hasn't used it for years until now. As for Bentley, yeah I guess there is brand identity with a few others, obviously brands like Ferrari are well established. But for the somewhat accessible luxo image, MB, Bimmer, and Lexus are it.

Incendiary

I don't own a Lexus, but nor do I own an Acura. I also don't own an Infiniti, an Audi, a Cadillac, a RR, a Ferrari, a Lambo, an Aston Martin, a Chevy, a GMC, a Lincoln, a Ford, a Saab, a Volvo, a Skoda, a Peugeot, a Seat, a Smart, a Lotus, a Nissan, a Toyota, or a Renault. What's your point? Am I unqualified or unworthy to comment on these makes because of that?

The LS did make Lexus, but I don't know that I'd say that's what they're best known for nowadays in the general public. I'd also go as far to say that a poll on CL wouldn't accurately reflect what the public thinks of when they think of Lexus.

jracerlmn

oh i hate explaining myself hahaha, ok

basically what i meant was sure, those people at MBworld are snobs, but it isn't any better to snub them back for being snobby

and it makes nice MB owners like me look bad

Incendiary

I can't argue with you that most people probably don't know what Maybach is, although I don't know what age would really have to do with it, unless you're talking the very very old.

Incendiary

I post at MBWorld. I just dislike snobs is all. Especially snobs who use racial epithets, like there and on Cadillacforums. Unfortunately, it's pretty pervasive throughout the car world, even on Japanese car forums. "Ricer" is a term that's still thrown around too much.

RNM GS3

I never said Lexus is the BEST and everything else sucks, like some people say on mbworld.org say about MB. Thats not my intention. All I am stating is that currently in America, Lexus is considered by auto professionals and the general public as having the same type of prestige and being in the same class as MB/BMW/Audi. Acura on the other hand is nowhere near those 4 automakers, its basically at the very bottom tier of the luxury brands. I consider Jaguar, Cadillac, Infiniti all well above Acura.

Incendiary

That's cool. I happen to think somewhat differently, and I think that's okay. The original intention of mine in joining this thread was simply to refute the contention that the RL is not a good car. If you're (you in a general sense) going to base things just on the name adorning the hood, then I guess the RL isn't as good a car as any Lexus-badged product, whether it be a tricycle, a canopener, or a car. But if you judge based on merit and actual driving performance, then I think many here would be happy to have a Lexus RL. That is all.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Are we still talking about the RL here? If so, a lot of us have driven the RL already. I don't think I have ever said the RL will rule the market. I'm not sure I even said it will lead its class in sales. That is not my point when defending this particular car (RL). My whole point is just saying that it is indeed a car that is competitive against its class competition. Whether the buyers buy it or not is not my argument. The car has everything and much more than cars of its class. Why are people willing to spend more than $50K on competition car with less features, less HP, and maybe equal fit and finish? We have seen many here post on buying with emotion. That is fine. Your argument about the RL IMHO is sound because it is based on emotion. We don't disagree that Acura does not have the prestige of some of the other brands. I really don't care what Acura's public perception status as a Luxury car brand is. I see it all the time on the BMW forums. A guy says he drove or rode in his friends Nissan Maxima and it was great, this and that, fastter than his 325, good interior and what not. Then he and his fellow owners make a comment saying, well, at least you drove hom in a BMW. It is a 325 for crying ouy loud. Another public image or prestige story is when I took my NSX to be insured. They people in the insurace office were impressed Honda build such a car. Then, when I took my lowely BMW 325 to in insured they were all impressed I had a BMW. I tried explaining to them it was just a 325 but they said something like yea, but it still is a BMW.

As car enthusiasts shouldn't we be discussing a car on its actual merits rather than its perceived image? Put the price aside, what more do we want from a luxury car? Many laugh at the RLs near $50K MSRP, but let's speculate for a second on what the 06 Lexus GS300 that is coming out will cost. I'm willing to bet that the MSRP will no doubt be lower, but once you add all the comparable options it will price out near or over $50K and still not have everything the RL has, and have a weaker V6 with weaker performance. Who hear amoung us will be willing to critique Lexus for bringing out an over priced non competitive car? Or, will we be like the BMW camp and simply say it is great because it is a Lexus? Let's put aside our bias about AWD, RWD, or V8. Sure, those will sway a lot of buyers one way or the other. But I still don't understand why it really matters in a car like the RL when driven you can't tell it is NOT a RWD car or it has a transverse V6 or is slightly front heavy (58/42 weight distribution). There have been a few of us who have actually drven the RL and have stated we were impressed. The car seems to be an over achiever. I think car reviewers should not be told anything about the car when they go to test drive it in the case of the cars peformance. Let them guess what is under the hood based on its performance. Take the NSX for example. I hear testers paising it, test numbers come back with anywhere from a 4.8-5.0 0-60 and a 12.8-13.2 1/4 mile and then the reviewer goes on to say the 290 HP 3.2L V6 is lacking compared to a Corvette Z06 with 405 HP that is about 0.3 second faster. The NSX-R does a the same track time at the Nurbergring as the Corvette Z06 yet it is still underpowered because it has a 290 HP V6.

You know, I may never buy the RL or maybe I will when I make my next car purchase. The only thing I can say is it is on my short list and when the time comes I will test drive, research, and evaluate each of the potential cars and then make my choice. This list includeds some used cars such as the C32 AMG, and BMW M3 with SMG. I'm not praising the RL simply because it is an Acura or I'm a supposed Lexus owner that loves Acura. I praise the car because it is a good car. I never liked Infiniti cars at all until the G35 Coupe came out and I sing its praises as well at as its shortcomings. To be fair; some of the shortcomings I find with the new RL is the engine. Not that it doesn't have a V8, but that they choose to use a SOHC V6 with VTEC instead of a DOHC iVTEC. With a DOHC engine they could have sqeezed out at least another 25 HP and 15-20 ft lbs of torque based on passed Honda engines of similar configurations. I'm disappointed they used a single lens HID instead of a Bi Xenon HID like they have on the TL or other Euro cars. I'm disappointed that the cars breaking isn't a little better eventhough it uses 12.8" rotors with 4 piston calipers. I'm disappointed the RL doesn't have a reverse camera.

It is obvious the opposing sides of this discussion will never see eye to eye simply because we all have different tastes, styles, and perceptions of what makes a good car. I'm in the camp were I rather see smaller displacement high strung high reving engines like the BMW M3s I6, or the NSXs V6, or the S20o0s I4. My perfect engine would be a 3.5L DOHC V6 with 350HP and 320 ft lbs of torque with a 10K RPM redline. I get more excited about an engine like that than I do about a 6.0L V8 with 600HP and 500ft lbs of torque. That is just me. I look forward to the day when a full electric car blows away a Ferrari V12. Wait a minute. Such an electric car already exists


We are all Lexus owners. Let's be honest for a second. Why did we buy our Lexus cars? Was it because it actually was a leader in its class or simply because it had the name Lexus on it? I for one bought my Lexus because I thought it was a leader in its class based on my priorities. If we take off all the badges I'm willing to bet the RL comes out on top or near the top of almost all categories agaist its competition. So why isn't it a worthy competitor? Simply because it says Acura on the hood?

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Well, let's see exactly what they are attempting to do. Yes, it may not be enough, but they sure are headed in the right direction and are doing a heck of of a lot more than any other luxury car manufacturer right now. How would you redefine a luxury car segment that quite frankly is more about HP than anything else right now? Acura is one of the only companies that offers everything standard. People will critizise that but they have a nitch in the market because of that. They are not following the crowd in the HP war but offering inovative technology. They came out with a car that has every option as any other luxury car on the market then added more. If Lexus came out wih all the features that the RL has on their 06 GS300 this whole forum will be giving it the praises that it deserves. Slap on an Acura badge on the same car and it becomes an overpriced underachiever. Take a look at everything we know about the 06 Lexus GS300. As much as people critizise the styling of the RL, the styling of the new GS is equally controvertial. Then take a look at the car itself. With everything we know about it so far, cam you honestly say it has an advantage over the RL? Or, will we just praise it because it is a Lexus? Is Lexus really headed in the right direction with its AWD GS300? It seems like it will be everything people have been critizising the RL for. Based on current GS weight specs, adding the AWD will bring its weight to nearly that of the RL. Add all the options that the RL has and it will be priced near or higher than the RL. How is it good for Lexus but bad for Acura?

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

This is true, but not quite fair. What we have here is Acura as a car company taking a steep down hill curve in 1996. Back in the famed days of the G1 Integra and G1/G2 Legend Acura was definately spoken in the same breath as those other cars and compared favorably. Then All hell brock loose at Honda and we can all agree they lost anything they gained up until that point. So sure, it is no wonder why Acura is so lowely regurded among the leading luxury brands. They simply build non inspired cars at that time. But lets look at them in 2004. It will take a lot to climb out of the hole, but they are now offering cars very competitve again just like they did in the early 90s. We can say it will probably take their image a long time to recover, but their cars are right there with todays offerings and they should be given fair credit. Critics will say why should be give a car company any credit for finally catching up with the crowd? Well, why not? Some of their cars are on performance and features alone are beating out the competion even if the image is still far behind.

What I sometimes don't get here is a lot of us on this forum or other car forums claim we are car enthusiasts, yet when we evaluate cars we bring up brand image or pretiige into the evaluation. Let's leave the image and prestige evaluation for the general public who don't appreciate the things that a car enthusiasts supposed to love.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Why not? Because it doesn't have a Lexus badge on it? Why can a loaded GS300 cost nearly $50K but an Acura RL can't? We should then say Lexus only has 3 cars that should be considered worthy luxury acars woth the high dollar price and that would be the LS430, the GS430, and the SC430. None of those car are Leuxs' top selling cars. Serously, why would a sub par $50K car be worthy of the price and not a superior $50K car? Simply because of image and prestige? Does that mean you buy cars based on image and not for their actual merits? Don't get me wrong, you have good taste in cars as shown by your RIP GS, but that car was a leader in its class back in 98 thus justified.

You tell me, what luxury features or features in general the 05 RL does not have to not justify luxury car prices. Or, tell me what it needs in terms of features to justify a luxury car price? I know you will mentioned the eninge and RWD, so anything else?

What more features can you ask for $50K? Throw in a 4.0L V8 with 300HP and 300ft lbs of torque (40 more ft lbs of torque than the RL has) and this car should sell for $60K. That V8 should help its image right? Surely image is worth paying the extra money.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree with you on this one. I think pretty much we all agree when it comes to the image and prestige points of view. Acura's image is down no doubt about it. Especially with the cars they had in the late 90s which were downgrades from the previous models. I mean what was Acura thinking with the RL. The Legend has a 3.2L 230 HP with a 6-Speed manual trans options, then they come out with its replacement 3.5l RL with 210HP

Also, keep in mind this never started out as an RL rules topic but more so a RL not worthy of a near $50K price tag topic.

You are abcolutely correct that I too perceive Lexus in the same class as MB and BMW. The question is, now that Lexus has gained its reputation what will they do now? What has Lexus done lately? I would say it is great that they more than likely will be the first to offer hybrid in a mainstream car like th RX400H, but what else? Will Lexus go in the direction of BMW and MB and live off their name or will they try something bold and inovative like the original LS400 and 98 GS400? I have to say from the looks of the 06 GS it appears Lexus will try and live off their name for that car. Let's see what they come up with for the LS.

One can argue that Toyota/Lexus has geat vision with their new concept hybrid super car. True, but Honda came out with the Dualnote concept a few years ago. The quesion is who will actually be the first to bring it to the market?

SecPole14

The answer is: Because the Lexus GS does not have A LONG HISTORY OF SUCKING, unlike the RL.

Ah, I see. You're impressed by the FEATURES. Personally, I don't care about these features. I care more about a decent powertrain (How many luxury cars have transverse engines, by the way? Is Acura trying to tell the Lexus, BMW, and MB that what they have doing all these years is wrong?) and overall look and feel of the car.

I am not a slave to technology. I rarely even use my cell phone. I know where hospitals and restaurants are, and I can guarandamntee you that I know alternate routes for traffic better than some Acura XM widget. Speaking of that, it's only avaliable in a handful of large cities, so don't give the excuse that's it's useful while traveling. And if you are travelling, plan ahead. No need to rely on an over-hyped NAV system.

I guess if you work in the tech industry or if you're the type of person who switches cell/comm devices every time Motorolla farts a new one out, then the RL might be for you.

Acura, as a company, has far too many question marks in its history to be considered a top-tier manufacturer, unlike Lexus, BMW, or MB. They clearly don't want to play hardball, the new RL is evidence of that.

Dude 1: "Oh, how much did you pay for that new Accord?"
Dude 2: "***. It's not an Accord. It's an Acura RL and it cost $50K and can't outbrake an E320, or out-manouver a 5-Series, has a transverse V6 and bunch of cool features that could get you into a crash if you try to take full advantage of them on the road..."
Dude 1: *vomits*

By the way, I saw the new Odyssey for the first time today and I think it has more presence than the RL. It's one cool van.

BigVIPness

If the Oddesy is the new Honda minivan I saw a black one today and I was "tiiiiiight!" Which should say something coming from someone who has a perticular dislike for honda.

As for the RL... lets not kid ourselves, you should not have to jusitify why it should be held to a higher regard over another car. The facts, numbers, and history should do that for you.