Acura RL thread(new pics, A-Spec) $49,479
#331
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Originally posted by wantAnewLex
The answer is: Because the Lexus GS does not have A LONG HISTORY OF SUCKING, unlike the RL.
The answer is: Because the Lexus GS does not have A LONG HISTORY OF SUCKING, unlike the RL.
Originally posted by wantAnewLex
Ah, I see. You're impressed by the FEATURES. Personally, I don't care about these features. I care more about a decent powertrain (
Ah, I see. You're impressed by the FEATURES. Personally, I don't care about these features. I care more about a decent powertrain (
If you are more into the engine and powertrain shouldn't you be more into Muscle cars or Sports cars than luxury cars?
Last edited by CK6Speed; 12-01-04 at 09:33 AM.
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
SH AWD will not be used by the RLs owners. RL owners are a older, relaxed group that values Centrum silver, prune juice and watching Matlock. Honestly, do you know how HARD you would have to push the RL to take advantage of its wonderful SH attributes? Pretty damn hard. We are talking about pushing the RL very, very hard. Otherwise, you won't use it or notice it.VSsc400, the RL is a 5 speed auto with the paddle shifters.
SH AWD will not be used by the RLs owners. RL owners are a older, relaxed group that values Centrum silver, prune juice and watching Matlock. Honestly, do you know how HARD you would have to push the RL to take advantage of its wonderful SH attributes? Pretty damn hard. We are talking about pushing the RL very, very hard. Otherwise, you won't use it or notice it.VSsc400, the RL is a 5 speed auto with the paddle shifters.
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#333
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I don't see how some people are saying the RL doesn't have a great powertrain. That kind of statement is rooted in negative bias. The RL has the most powerful V6 ever (for a normally aspirated engine). More powerful than the NSX.
Back in the late 80s the M5 had 310hp and less TQ than the RL. It was one of the fastest cars of that time. What's so bad about 300hp and 260-TQ exactly? Just 10 years ago the 5.7L small block in the corvette was making 300hp.
We're on the 23rd page of this topic. I guess some people are feeling threatened by the RL. That's good. I bet a lot of people with Porsche and Ferrari cars were threatened by the NSX when it came out. So what did that do to Porsche and Ferrari? It forced them to make better cars.
Also just b/c it's not RWD doesn't mean it's not a luxury car. Audi does the same thing, and if I'm not mistaken MB offeres awd (for about $4K premium), and maybe the next LS will have awd option. Caddy and Infiniti also offer awd. For some people maybe they don't want rwd. Not every car has to be a carbon copy of a 5-series for it to be a "sporty/luxury" car. IMO
Back in the late 80s the M5 had 310hp and less TQ than the RL. It was one of the fastest cars of that time. What's so bad about 300hp and 260-TQ exactly? Just 10 years ago the 5.7L small block in the corvette was making 300hp.
We're on the 23rd page of this topic. I guess some people are feeling threatened by the RL. That's good. I bet a lot of people with Porsche and Ferrari cars were threatened by the NSX when it came out. So what did that do to Porsche and Ferrari? It forced them to make better cars.
Also just b/c it's not RWD doesn't mean it's not a luxury car. Audi does the same thing, and if I'm not mistaken MB offeres awd (for about $4K premium), and maybe the next LS will have awd option. Caddy and Infiniti also offer awd. For some people maybe they don't want rwd. Not every car has to be a carbon copy of a 5-series for it to be a "sporty/luxury" car. IMO
Last edited by rai; 12-01-04 at 10:37 AM.
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#334
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
SH AWD will not be used by the RLs owners. RL owners are a older, relaxed group that values Centrum silver, prune juice and watching Matlock. Honestly, do you know how HARD you would have to push the RL to take advantage of its wonderful SH attributes? Pretty damn hard. We are talking about pushing the RL very, very hard. Otherwise, you won't use it or notice it.VSsc400, the RL is a 5 speed auto with the paddle shifters.
.
SH AWD will not be used by the RLs owners. RL owners are a older, relaxed group that values Centrum silver, prune juice and watching Matlock. Honestly, do you know how HARD you would have to push the RL to take advantage of its wonderful SH attributes? Pretty damn hard. We are talking about pushing the RL very, very hard. Otherwise, you won't use it or notice it.VSsc400, the RL is a 5 speed auto with the paddle shifters.
.
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Man, this thread really got re-energized. This is a great debate, no name calling and noting immature being stated. My response is coming in a second.
I will quickly say, no matter what badge, b/c the 300C has such Bentlyish styling and offers RWD/AWD and a V-8 and has been EMBRACED by popular culture (entertainiers, athletes, music videos, car magazines etc) it is attracting buyers from;
Lexus, Lincoln, Caddy, Acura, BMW, Benz etc etc. It goes to show with outstanding styling, a very low price (compated to other cars with the same RWD/V-8 features) people will overlook a badge.
I will quickly say, no matter what badge, b/c the 300C has such Bentlyish styling and offers RWD/AWD and a V-8 and has been EMBRACED by popular culture (entertainiers, athletes, music videos, car magazines etc) it is attracting buyers from;
Lexus, Lincoln, Caddy, Acura, BMW, Benz etc etc. It goes to show with outstanding styling, a very low price (compated to other cars with the same RWD/V-8 features) people will overlook a badge.
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Originally posted by CK6Speed
Isn't it the features that make up a large part of a luxury car? Would the LS430 still be a luxury car if it had no leather, no wood trim, no auto climate control, no HIDs, no Mark Levinson stereo, no power windows, and was as noisy as a Buick? It will still have a wonderful V8 engine and great 5 speed tranny though.
If you are more into the engine and powertrain shouldn't you be more into Muscle cars or Sports cars than luxury cars?
Isn't it the features that make up a large part of a luxury car? Would the LS430 still be a luxury car if it had no leather, no wood trim, no auto climate control, no HIDs, no Mark Levinson stereo, no power windows, and was as noisy as a Buick? It will still have a wonderful V8 engine and great 5 speed tranny though.
If you are more into the engine and powertrain shouldn't you be more into Muscle cars or Sports cars than luxury cars?
I mean even the Mazda3 has an avaliable NAV system...Models from Lexus, MB, and BMW will have all these features in due time...And then what is the RL left with? A good AWD system?
I give Acura no credit for not putting in more safety features, such as knee airbags or rear seat side-impact SRS. Those sorts of things would have impressed me more than Bluetooth or fancy NAV.
rai: Negative bias? No...REALLY? Come on, get over it, no one here considers the RL a genuine threat to the established GS, 5-Series, or E-Klasse models. Those cars just have "it," that all-too-important intangible. The RL does not.
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Interesting, no negative bias?
We all know Toyota sells a lot of cars. How do you think the GS ranks in the sales volume? Maybe near the bottom?
Yet you put the GS in with the E-class and 5-series (natch). The GS is in this class but not the RL.
OK here are some sales figures:-->>CLICK
They're for 10 months in 04:
Lexus:
ES: 61K
LS: 26K
GS: 6928
Acura:
TL: 65K
RL: 4845 (this is the old RL)
5-series: 37K
7-series: 13K
E-class: 42K
S-class: 16K
Notice anything? Only 2 cars selling less than 1000/month.
In fact in 8 weeks the E-class will outsell the GS for the year.
9 weeks for the 5-series to outsel the GS
<note this is ONLY for the US sales>
We all know Toyota sells a lot of cars. How do you think the GS ranks in the sales volume? Maybe near the bottom?
Yet you put the GS in with the E-class and 5-series (natch). The GS is in this class but not the RL.
OK here are some sales figures:-->>CLICK
They're for 10 months in 04:
Lexus:
ES: 61K
LS: 26K
GS: 6928
Acura:
TL: 65K
RL: 4845 (this is the old RL)
5-series: 37K
7-series: 13K
E-class: 42K
S-class: 16K
Notice anything? Only 2 cars selling less than 1000/month.
In fact in 8 weeks the E-class will outsell the GS for the year.
9 weeks for the 5-series to outsel the GS
<note this is ONLY for the US sales>
Last edited by rai; 12-01-04 at 01:07 PM.
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#338
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Originally posted by rai
Interesting, no negative bias?
We all know Toyota sells a lot of cars. How do you think the GS ranks in the sales volume? Maybe near the bottom?
Yet you put the GS in with the E-class and 5-series (natch). The GS is in this class but not the RL.
OK here are some sales figures:-->>CLICK
They're for 10 months in 04:
Lexus:
ES: 61K
LS: 26K
GS: 6928
Acura:
TL: 65K
RL: 4845 (this is the old RL)
5-series: 37K
7-series: 13K
E-class: 42K
S-class: 16K
Notice anything? Only 2 cars selling less than 1000/month.
In fact in 8 weeks the E-class will outsell the GS for the year.
9 weeks for the 5-series to outsel the GS
<note this is ONLY for the US sales>
Interesting, no negative bias?
We all know Toyota sells a lot of cars. How do you think the GS ranks in the sales volume? Maybe near the bottom?
Yet you put the GS in with the E-class and 5-series (natch). The GS is in this class but not the RL.
OK here are some sales figures:-->>CLICK
They're for 10 months in 04:
Lexus:
ES: 61K
LS: 26K
GS: 6928
Acura:
TL: 65K
RL: 4845 (this is the old RL)
5-series: 37K
7-series: 13K
E-class: 42K
S-class: 16K
Notice anything? Only 2 cars selling less than 1000/month.
In fact in 8 weeks the E-class will outsell the GS for the year.
9 weeks for the 5-series to outsel the GS
<note this is ONLY for the US sales>
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#339
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Yes, the only "established players" in the mid-size luxury class is the E class & the 5 series. The current GS, even when first introduced, never sold at nearly the same volume as the previous E class & 5 series, i.e. averaging at least 3 -4+ K cars per month, & maintaining at least 3 K per month in the U.S. even in the year before they were replaced.
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#340
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Originally posted by CK6Speed
What does a 93-97 GS have that other cars of that era didn't have?
What does a 93-97 GS have that other cars of that era didn't have?
Originally posted by CK6Speed
Isn't it the features that make up a large part of a luxury car?
Isn't it the features that make up a large part of a luxury car?
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I hope no one is taking my opinions the wrong way. I don't want to come across as saying I don't like Toyota or Lexus.
I think the RL doesn't look great. But by all accounts it can stop go and turn with the best of them.
I come across this all the time. No one car is "the best". But if I go to a P-car forum I'll hear the Boxster is all around, hands down better than the S2000.
OK consider the source.
The RL is not "the best car in the world"
It's too heavy
It's too plain
It's only got a 5-speed when everyone else will have 6 or 7-speeds
It's not got a V8 option
I'll agree to the above.
But tell me it doesn't have THE BEST "6" of all time and I'll think on it and ask you who has a better V6 or I6?
Tell me MB or BMW will be more reliable and I'll
on that.
Tell me it's not cheaper than comp MB or BMW and I'll
on that.
I think the RL doesn't look great. But by all accounts it can stop go and turn with the best of them.
I come across this all the time. No one car is "the best". But if I go to a P-car forum I'll hear the Boxster is all around, hands down better than the S2000.
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The RL is not "the best car in the world"
It's too heavy
It's too plain
It's only got a 5-speed when everyone else will have 6 or 7-speeds
It's not got a V8 option
I'll agree to the above.
But tell me it doesn't have THE BEST "6" of all time and I'll think on it and ask you who has a better V6 or I6?
Tell me MB or BMW will be more reliable and I'll
![Thumb Down](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif)
Tell me it's not cheaper than comp MB or BMW and I'll
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#342
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Originally posted by rai
I hope no one is taking my opinions the wrong way. I don't want to come across as saying I don't like Toyota or Lexus.
I think the RL doesn't look great. But by all accounts it can stop go and turn with the best of them.
I come across this all the time. No one car is "the best". But if I go to a P-car forum I'll hear the Boxster is all around, hands down better than the S2000.
OK consider the source.
The RL is not "the best car in the world"
It's too heavy
It's too plain
It's only got a 5-speed when everyone else will have 6 or 7-speeds
It's not got a V8 option
I'll agree to the above.
But tell me it doesn't have THE BEST "6" of all time and I'll think on it and ask you who has a better V6 or I6?
Tell me MB or BMW will be more reliable and I'll
on that.
Tell me it's not cheaper than comp MB or BMW and I'll
on that.
I hope no one is taking my opinions the wrong way. I don't want to come across as saying I don't like Toyota or Lexus.
I think the RL doesn't look great. But by all accounts it can stop go and turn with the best of them.
I come across this all the time. No one car is "the best". But if I go to a P-car forum I'll hear the Boxster is all around, hands down better than the S2000.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
The RL is not "the best car in the world"
It's too heavy
It's too plain
It's only got a 5-speed when everyone else will have 6 or 7-speeds
It's not got a V8 option
I'll agree to the above.
But tell me it doesn't have THE BEST "6" of all time and I'll think on it and ask you who has a better V6 or I6?
Tell me MB or BMW will be more reliable and I'll
![Thumb Down](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif)
Tell me it's not cheaper than comp MB or BMW and I'll
![Thumb Down](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif)
Going back to your sales post. The facts can be screwed.
1. The GS is 8 years old. And sells avg, not bad for such an older design.
2. It sells with no rebates. This keeps it seen as a high class car and keeps re-sale high.
3. The E class is 2 years old, the 5, 1 year young. So they will sell much stronger (though 5 sales are down).
4. The GS has GS 300/430 models. The 5 and E have V-6, V-8, stick, wagon, AMG/M, AWD models. The RL offers 1 model.
5. Those RL numbers for last month combined 1st and 2nd gen figures.
6. You can buy a 1st gen RL for 4-6k off list for the past 6 years.
Again, no one is saying the RL sucks. That is far from the truth. We are just not super impressed either for 50k. If you look at any Acura forum, they are not either.
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Originally posted by wantAnewLex
And no one here has been talking about sales numbers much. I mean it really doesn't matter. The GS doesn't sell much but we still love it.
And no one here has been talking about sales numbers much. I mean it really doesn't matter. The GS doesn't sell much but we still love it.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 12-01-04 at 01:43 PM.
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#344
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I've read this thread from when it began and find the discussion/debate to be fascinating. Here's a few random thoughts that may derail the thread, add fuel to the fire, or be completely ignored.
- I've owned Saturns, Acuras, a Bimmer, and a Lexus. I think I'm a fairly typical case of moving up the economic ladder as I age and enjoying the increased benefits associated with that. I used to consider Lexus nothing more than an overpriced version of Acura (before I owned a Lexus). I also used to wonder why anyone in their right mind would buy jeans at Banana Republic when you could get perfectly good ones for half the price at the Gap or Eddie Bauer.
- When I turned in my M Roadster six months early on its lease to buy a GS430, many of my friends asked me why I was "trading down". Until that point I never actually realized how powerful a brand BMW is in the United States.
- MB is seen as a luxury marque here, but the E-class is a common taxicab in Europe. For all their prestige, MB and BMW are not held in such high regard in their home countries. I'm not saying they're not the biggest sellers, but they are in the way Chevy and Ford are the biggest sellers here.
- I don't think the last generation RL sucked as bad as people seem to think it did. Taken by itself, it was a wonderful car, loaded with cushy luxury. It was underpowered and Acura had to discount heavily the past couple of years to keep them moving, and it certainly did nothing to enhance the prestige of the brand. But to those looking for a wonderfully-engineered, luxury-laden vehicle with good customer service backing up the whole process, the RL was a great choice. I think a lot of Americans who aren't sucked into the whole MB/BMW image thing got great bargains when buying the RL because of the overall market perception.
- Speaking of market perception, it's interesting to think about brand names. Everyone here has an opinion, and surveys can show what the marketplace in general thinks. But loyalties, in general, are fickle. BMW and MB, I think, are about to learn this the hard way. Once the general perception of their brands shifts from "worth the money because they're prestigious" to "overpriced because their products don't work and they're snobby about them", they will have no legs to stand on. Right now their generally inferior products are selling purely on brand reputation.
- Lexus and Acura have taken different approaches to the Japanese luxury car game. Acura invented the genre, and shut up the detractors with their early products. The Integra, Legend, and NSX were class leaders in every sense of the word (except for snob appeal, which they started to break but then failed). Lexus was an also-ran, but stuck it out and kept true to their "passionate pursuit of perfection" tagline. The cars were good, but the service was revolutionary. Then the cars became great, and eventually amazing. Infiniti has never seriously cracked this market in any meaningful way.
- The new RL represents the latest in a series of intriguing moves for Acura. The MDX, TSX, and TL are all accomplishing their missions--getting Acura noticed in the automotive press and on the streets. The question none of us can answer (unless we have any closet American Honda executives) is what their goal is with the RL. Do they want to continue to get great reviews and increase sales, or are looking longer-term at rebuilding the brand name in a more upmarket sense?
- I've owned Saturns, Acuras, a Bimmer, and a Lexus. I think I'm a fairly typical case of moving up the economic ladder as I age and enjoying the increased benefits associated with that. I used to consider Lexus nothing more than an overpriced version of Acura (before I owned a Lexus). I also used to wonder why anyone in their right mind would buy jeans at Banana Republic when you could get perfectly good ones for half the price at the Gap or Eddie Bauer.
- When I turned in my M Roadster six months early on its lease to buy a GS430, many of my friends asked me why I was "trading down". Until that point I never actually realized how powerful a brand BMW is in the United States.
- MB is seen as a luxury marque here, but the E-class is a common taxicab in Europe. For all their prestige, MB and BMW are not held in such high regard in their home countries. I'm not saying they're not the biggest sellers, but they are in the way Chevy and Ford are the biggest sellers here.
- I don't think the last generation RL sucked as bad as people seem to think it did. Taken by itself, it was a wonderful car, loaded with cushy luxury. It was underpowered and Acura had to discount heavily the past couple of years to keep them moving, and it certainly did nothing to enhance the prestige of the brand. But to those looking for a wonderfully-engineered, luxury-laden vehicle with good customer service backing up the whole process, the RL was a great choice. I think a lot of Americans who aren't sucked into the whole MB/BMW image thing got great bargains when buying the RL because of the overall market perception.
- Speaking of market perception, it's interesting to think about brand names. Everyone here has an opinion, and surveys can show what the marketplace in general thinks. But loyalties, in general, are fickle. BMW and MB, I think, are about to learn this the hard way. Once the general perception of their brands shifts from "worth the money because they're prestigious" to "overpriced because their products don't work and they're snobby about them", they will have no legs to stand on. Right now their generally inferior products are selling purely on brand reputation.
- Lexus and Acura have taken different approaches to the Japanese luxury car game. Acura invented the genre, and shut up the detractors with their early products. The Integra, Legend, and NSX were class leaders in every sense of the word (except for snob appeal, which they started to break but then failed). Lexus was an also-ran, but stuck it out and kept true to their "passionate pursuit of perfection" tagline. The cars were good, but the service was revolutionary. Then the cars became great, and eventually amazing. Infiniti has never seriously cracked this market in any meaningful way.
- The new RL represents the latest in a series of intriguing moves for Acura. The MDX, TSX, and TL are all accomplishing their missions--getting Acura noticed in the automotive press and on the streets. The question none of us can answer (unless we have any closet American Honda executives) is what their goal is with the RL. Do they want to continue to get great reviews and increase sales, or are looking longer-term at rebuilding the brand name in a more upmarket sense?
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#345
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3. The E class is 2 years old, the 5, 1 year young. So they will sell much stronger (though 5 sales are down).
the E class has ALWAYS sold well. In fact it's MB's #1 seller, the bread and butter car of the company.
the E class has ALWAYS sold well. In fact it's MB's #1 seller, the bread and butter car of the company.
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