CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

The RL/Legend has a longer history of being good. Only the 3rd generation Legend/RL has been a let down. You are talking about 1 generation that sucked. The G1 Legend was great for its time. The G2 Legend IMHO was also great for its time. The G3 Legend/RL sucked. The G4 Legend/RL is back on track. IMHO, only the 98+ GS is a benchmark car, Everything before that was nothing inovative or special. What does a 93-97 GS have that other cars of that era didn't have?

Isn't it the features that make up a large part of a luxury car? Would the LS430 still be a luxury car if it had no leather, no wood trim, no auto climate control, no HIDs, no Mark Levinson stereo, no power windows, and was as noisy as a Buick? It will still have a wonderful V8 engine and great 5 speed tranny though.

If you are more into the engine and powertrain shouldn't you be more into Muscle cars or Sports cars than luxury cars?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I know we rarely get it in GA, but SNOW is a big reason I'd want the SH AWD.

rai

I don't see how some people are saying the RL doesn't have a great powertrain. That kind of statement is rooted in negative bias. The RL has the most powerful V6 ever (for a normally aspirated engine). More powerful than the NSX.

Back in the late 80s the M5 had 310hp and less TQ than the RL. It was one of the fastest cars of that time. What's so bad about 300hp and 260-TQ exactly? Just 10 years ago the 5.7L small block in the corvette was making 300hp.

We're on the 23rd page of this topic. I guess some people are feeling threatened by the RL. That's good. I bet a lot of people with Porsche and Ferrari cars were threatened by the NSX when it came out. So what did that do to Porsche and Ferrari? It forced them to make better cars.

Also just b/c it's not RWD doesn't mean it's not a luxury car. Audi does the same thing, and if I'm not mistaken MB offeres awd (for about $4K premium), and maybe the next LS will have awd option. Caddy and Infiniti also offer awd. For some people maybe they don't want rwd. Not every car has to be a carbon copy of a 5-series for it to be a "sporty/luxury" car. IMO

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Actually you will use SH-AWD everytime you accelerate or take a corner moderately quick. Everytime you accelerate it transfers most of its power/torque to the rear wheels. Everytime you take or corner, it shifts power/torque mostly to the outside rear wheel and also speeds up the outer wheel. You don't have to be pushing it hard. And that is just driving normally. Everytime someone makes a mistake and lifts the throttle or breaks around or corner it will work. It may not save everyone, but it will save a lot of those RWD snap oversteer cases that happen nearly everytime it rains. Not everyone can drive like you or me Most of the drivers out there are poor drivers and they certainly will be saved by a system like SH-AWD. This past weekend it rained and I personally witnessed 2 major multiple car accidents simply because of snap oversteer causing one car to slam into the car in the next lane around a corner. The other I don't know what they heck the driver did but he ended up skidding across the entire freeway (5 lanes) taking out multiple cars including an SUV which ending up flipping after it hit the embankment. Could an AWD equipped car helped? I don't know, but watching cars loose their rear ends in the rain all the time makes me think it could.

LexFather

Man, this thread really got re-energized. This is a great debate, no name calling and noting immature being stated. My response is coming in a second.

I will quickly say, no matter what badge, b/c the 300C has such Bentlyish styling and offers RWD/AWD and a V-8 and has been EMBRACED by popular culture (entertainiers, athletes, music videos, car magazines etc) it is attracting buyers from;
Lexus, Lincoln, Caddy, Acura, BMW, Benz etc etc. It goes to show with outstanding styling, a very low price (compated to other cars with the same RWD/V-8 features) people will overlook a badge.

SecPole14

Sorry I didn't make that clear. Yes, all of those things are important. But people point to features like the traffic NAV, Bluetooth, etc. and say "Wow, that makes it a luxury car!" And I just don't buy it.

I mean even the Mazda3 has an avaliable NAV system...Models from Lexus, MB, and BMW will have all these features in due time...And then what is the RL left with? A good AWD system?

I give Acura no credit for not putting in more safety features, such as knee airbags or rear seat side-impact SRS. Those sorts of things would have impressed me more than Bluetooth or fancy NAV.

rai: Negative bias? No...REALLY? Come on, get over it, no one here considers the RL a genuine threat to the established GS, 5-Series, or E-Klasse models. Those cars just have "it," that all-too-important intangible. The RL does not.

rai

Interesting, no negative bias?

We all know Toyota sells a lot of cars. How do you think the GS ranks in the sales volume? Maybe near the bottom?

Yet you put the GS in with the E-class and 5-series (natch). The GS is in this class but not the RL.

OK here are some sales figures:-->>CLICK

They're for 10 months in 04:

Lexus:
ES: 61K
LS: 26K
GS: 6928

Acura:
TL: 65K
RL: 4845 (this is the old RL)

5-series: 37K
7-series: 13K

E-class: 42K
S-class: 16K

Notice anything? Only 2 cars selling less than 1000/month.

In fact in 8 weeks the E-class will outsell the GS for the year.

9 weeks for the 5-series to outsel the GS

<note this is ONLY for the US sales>

SecPole14

Rai, it was sarcastic. I readily admit negative bias on my part. And no one here has been talking about sales numbers much. I mean it really doesn't matter. The GS doesn't sell much but we still love it. Even if the RL sold 200,000 units, we still wouldn't think it was all that. You can't quantify an enthusiast's love or dislike of a car.

Gojirra99

Yes, the only "established players" in the mid-size luxury class is the E class & the 5 series. The current GS, even when first introduced, never sold at nearly the same volume as the previous E class & 5 series, i.e. averaging at least 3 -4+ K cars per month, & maintaining at least 3 K per month in the U.S. even in the year before they were replaced.

BigVIPness

Timeless styling, class, unmatched reliability, uber pimpness...

I think its not an issue of features, its a issue of USELESS features. I don't need a computer to till me i'm swerving between the lines. I think something like that is a insult to my driving abilities and the fact that with my 2 peepers I can see i'm serving and correct it with the 2 meat poles protruding out of my sides and the 10 flesh sticks branching off of them. Those are features that old/inattentive people need so they'll stop causing accidents.

rai

I hope no one is taking my opinions the wrong way. I don't want to come across as saying I don't like Toyota or Lexus.

I think the RL doesn't look great. But by all accounts it can stop go and turn with the best of them.

I come across this all the time. No one car is "the best". But if I go to a P-car forum I'll hear the Boxster is all around, hands down better than the S2000. OK consider the source.

The RL is not "the best car in the world"

It's too heavy
It's too plain
It's only got a 5-speed when everyone else will have 6 or 7-speeds
It's not got a V8 option

I'll agree to the above.

But tell me it doesn't have THE BEST "6" of all time and I'll think on it and ask you who has a better V6 or I6?

Tell me MB or BMW will be more reliable and I'll on that.

Tell me it's not cheaper than comp MB or BMW and I'll on that.

LexFather

The Rl clearly has the most hp rated at 300hp. It has 260lbs torque. It also has typical useless Acura gearing. Checkout 4th gear for instance. The engine is one of the strong parts of the car, no denying that.

Going back to your sales post. The facts can be screwed.
1. The GS is 8 years old. And sells avg, not bad for such an older design.
2. It sells with no rebates. This keeps it seen as a high class car and keeps re-sale high.
3. The E class is 2 years old, the 5, 1 year young. So they will sell much stronger (though 5 sales are down).
4. The GS has GS 300/430 models. The 5 and E have V-6, V-8, stick, wagon, AMG/M, AWD models. The RL offers 1 model.
5. Those RL numbers for last month combined 1st and 2nd gen figures.
6. You can buy a 1st gen RL for 4-6k off list for the past 6 years.

Again, no one is saying the RL sucks. That is far from the truth. We are just not super impressed either for 50k. If you look at any Acura forum, they are not either.

Gojirra99

Sales number does matter with regard to what has been discussed in this thread, as even the critics of the RL acknowleged the new RL is a very nice package, but does not have the brand name clout for it to be competitive at $50K, i.e. many won't care to buy it at this price because it's not a Lexus/BMW/MB. The RL has already got very good reviews so far so the only question left is how well it's going to sell relative to it's competitors in this class, which afterall, is what car companies are in business for.

Iceman

I've read this thread from when it began and find the discussion/debate to be fascinating. Here's a few random thoughts that may derail the thread, add fuel to the fire, or be completely ignored.

- I've owned Saturns, Acuras, a Bimmer, and a Lexus. I think I'm a fairly typical case of moving up the economic ladder as I age and enjoying the increased benefits associated with that. I used to consider Lexus nothing more than an overpriced version of Acura (before I owned a Lexus). I also used to wonder why anyone in their right mind would buy jeans at Banana Republic when you could get perfectly good ones for half the price at the Gap or Eddie Bauer.

- When I turned in my M Roadster six months early on its lease to buy a GS430, many of my friends asked me why I was "trading down". Until that point I never actually realized how powerful a brand BMW is in the United States.

- MB is seen as a luxury marque here, but the E-class is a common taxicab in Europe. For all their prestige, MB and BMW are not held in such high regard in their home countries. I'm not saying they're not the biggest sellers, but they are in the way Chevy and Ford are the biggest sellers here.

- I don't think the last generation RL sucked as bad as people seem to think it did. Taken by itself, it was a wonderful car, loaded with cushy luxury. It was underpowered and Acura had to discount heavily the past couple of years to keep them moving, and it certainly did nothing to enhance the prestige of the brand. But to those looking for a wonderfully-engineered, luxury-laden vehicle with good customer service backing up the whole process, the RL was a great choice. I think a lot of Americans who aren't sucked into the whole MB/BMW image thing got great bargains when buying the RL because of the overall market perception.

- Speaking of market perception, it's interesting to think about brand names. Everyone here has an opinion, and surveys can show what the marketplace in general thinks. But loyalties, in general, are fickle. BMW and MB, I think, are about to learn this the hard way. Once the general perception of their brands shifts from "worth the money because they're prestigious" to "overpriced because their products don't work and they're snobby about them", they will have no legs to stand on. Right now their generally inferior products are selling purely on brand reputation.

- Lexus and Acura have taken different approaches to the Japanese luxury car game. Acura invented the genre, and shut up the detractors with their early products. The Integra, Legend, and NSX were class leaders in every sense of the word (except for snob appeal, which they started to break but then failed). Lexus was an also-ran, but stuck it out and kept true to their "passionate pursuit of perfection" tagline. The cars were good, but the service was revolutionary. Then the cars became great, and eventually amazing. Infiniti has never seriously cracked this market in any meaningful way.

- The new RL represents the latest in a series of intriguing moves for Acura. The MDX, TSX, and TL are all accomplishing their missions--getting Acura noticed in the automotive press and on the streets. The question none of us can answer (unless we have any closet American Honda executives) is what their goal is with the RL. Do they want to continue to get great reviews and increase sales, or are looking longer-term at rebuilding the brand name in a more upmarket sense?

jracerlmn

3. The E class is 2 years old, the 5, 1 year young. So they will sell much stronger (though 5 sales are down).

the E class has ALWAYS sold well. In fact it's MB's #1 seller, the bread and butter car of the company.