LexFather

No one is taking away anything from the E-class. Yes, its always been a great seller.

Seems Caddy owners think similar about Acura and the RL (ignore some of the brainless posts). They also acknowledge Lexus is up on Caddy.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ighlight=lexus

Incendiary

So let's sum up some of the arguments we've seen thus far:

1. The RL is a great car, if you evaluate it based on its own merits and look at everything it includes for its price. Performance and handling are excellent for its class, and the luxury feel is very evident as soon as you set foot inside it. There are a few shortcomings in the features, but that's to be expected in a first year release model that needs "room to improve" as it ages. But even still, compared to other similarly equipped cars in its intended class, the RL still blows away the competition based on price and extra features and luxury-feel/performance.

4. Even though the new RL may be good, Acura's history of and in particular the RL's recent history of sucking makes the car less desireable.

2. It may be a great car, but it's not worth $50k simply based on its name. Acura is not on the same plateau as MB, BMW, Lexus, and some other marques that could more easily get away with charging $50k for the exact same car.

3. Acura sucks, because it offers no cars with a V8 and RWD simultaneously. AWD doesn't count, SH-AWD isn't needed by most people, transverse engines blow, some of the RL's included features are extraneous. Although the new V6 may be just as good as some V8's, it lacks the low end torque a V8 would have, and therefore V8's are better and to be lusted after for eternity.

3. Although the RL is vastly improved over its predecessor, because of some of the above stated reasons, the only metric of whether Acura done good by it is sales numbers.

4. Sales numbers don't mean much, because there are so many different engine versions and drivetrain versions and body versions that things will not be readily comparable. We should stick to evaluating the car based on its own merits.

I think that pretty much does it, and now we've come full circle. Sweet! I don't think anyone is saying anything new at this point, but just rehashing old points made previously in the thread. It's still a great way to waste time and entertain ourselves, though.

BTW, what makes a luxury car a luxury car at this point? It seems it was easier to define 10-20 years ago, but things are a bit muddled nowadays. Many features can be found on lower end cars. Some may say reliability, but some luxury cars have it and others don't. Better quality service? That's laughable considering some dealership experiences many of us have had. V8 and RWD? Marques that offer cars with those options also offer cars without them that people still consider a "luxury car." Prestige of the nameplate? Higher prices? Leather? Stronger performance? It seems clear to me that prestige is a big part of it, but everything else must come into the picture in some form or another. In particular, I still think having cutting edge features, including lane departure warning systems and active steering and iDrive and real-time traffic warnings and all things of that ilk, regardless of their utility to the average Joe or their difficult UI, etc., is a hallmark of what makes a luxury car a luxury car. If you judge a luxury car based on its marque alone, then you miss out on some cool cars like the VW Phaeton. In fact, in many regards, the VW Phaeton and the Acura RL are in the same boat. I think the RL will be far more successful in terms of sales in the US, though.

STIG

there is nothing much left to read. jk

rai

Nice sum up.

I know you were paraphrasing that "Acura Sucks". But if the internet existed 15 years ago, we'd probably hear this same talk about Acura with it's then new NSX.

Acura can't build a sports car, Acura doesn't have a V8, F-car and P-car are the ONLY real sports cars. etc...

Let's give credit. Maybe a V8 is expected, but those people clearly have a lot of other cars to choose from.

Honda/Acura knows how to build transverse V6s. That's what they do.

Sure they can make the odd rwd car like the NSX or S2000. I'm sure if they wanted to make a GS clone they'd make a good one. But like Audi has done, maybe something different can become a nitch.

Clearly it's not easy to overtake BMW and MB in the luxury sedan class. Only the LS has done it. Acura will be happy to have a place at the table, they don't have to be at the head.

I know the NSX has lost it's edge. It's now priced too high for it's performance. But, when new, it was one of the worlds best cars. Even now it's 15 year old re-sale for $20K+ and it's a near exotic people can put 200K miles on and drive everyday.

JAC JZS

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Many will argue the same points with the Acura Legend of that same era. Thus my point, about what other inovative things it had. Power was all about the same during that time, all had traction control, all had electronic tilt away steering wheels, all had heated seats and side mirrirs, all had good reliability. Anyway, you get the point. The GS300 was/is a good car in itself, but it didn't really have anything that the competition didn't have during that time.


Good point. I too would like to feel that I don't "Need" those types of features, but looking back at history isn't that what the luxury car segment is all about? The luxury car segment is where useless or inoative ideas are showcased. Traction Control, Airbags, HIDs, Navigation, Disk brakes, the list goes on and on of great inovative features as well as then so called useless features that everyone thought nobody would want. Who needed heated seats and heated side mirrors? Who needed auto dimming mirrors? To sum up my point, without many of those uselss fetures, I probably wouldn't hold the LS430 as a luxury car. On a lighter note, to address your last sentence. Isn't that the type of people who are buying luxury cars in the first place Just kidding.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Well, only time will tell if the rumors surrounding Acura are true about releaseing a larger V8 powered luxury sedan above the current RL line up. The other heavy rumor is Acura will add hybrid power to the current RL in a year or two. Maybe that is way they released the car with the V6 instead of the rumored V8. With the hybrid power and possible larger V8 car, it actually makes sense to keep the RL a V6. Let's get some rumors in order though. The rumor that Honda/Acura will never make a V8. The fact is, they have developed real working V8s in concept cars that are now production cars. They never used them, but they build them. Honda/Acura will never build a turbo or supercharged car. fact is, Honda does have production turbo cars, just not release in North America. They even had a 2.0L Turbo V6 in the G1 Legend offered in Europe and Japan. Also, they had real working twin turbo proto type V6 engines in some of their proto type NSXs along with V8s. They had about 8 different working prototype NSX's with differernt engine combinations.I have to check my NSX resources, but I think it even including a V10.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Since everyone is pretty much wrapping this topic up I'll do the same.

I don't think anyone here really expected to chenge anybody mind about the RL or any car for that matter. We all come from different backgrounds and have different priorities and likes and dislikes when it comes to cars. Different things excite us and different things turn us off. That is is good. Part of a debate or discussion like this is to just get people to open their minds a bit. If that doesn't happen, no big deal. We will all spend our money on whatever we feel fits our needs.

One of the things I was hoping for was that we could discuss cars as car enthusiast. Let the general public bicker about prestige and image. As a car enthusiast, if we were to discuss the Suburu STi I would have nothing but prasie for that car. It has gret peformance, affordable price, seems reliable enough, great mod potential. As part of the general public though, I would say I hate that car, don't like the style, and on and on. You see, as a car enthusiast I repect that car and all that it brings to the table even though I hate that car. Same with Porsche. I have to respect all type of engines they build, the performance they have, and the handling they achieve out of an inferior rear engine layout (Note here, many critics feel a rear engine car has considrable drawbacks when it comes to handling. Mid engine IMHO is the batter chassis).

Let's continue to be fair and honest when we discuss the next car. I vote for the 06 GS At the moment I have a love hate relationship with the 06 GS. To be fair, I have to wait until the car actually hits the showroom so i can test drive it and evaluate the real deal. I hope as Lexus owners we can all be brutally honest with that car though and not just sing its praises because it is a Lexus. Don't get me wrong, I hope the new GS proves me wrong and turns out to be the best things since sliced bread. If so, I'll put that car on my short list along with the RL and some other cars that I'm thinking of purchasing in the future. We'll wait and see though.

PS. RL sales aren't doing too bad so far. They have sold more 05 RLs in November than October and I think if I read correctly this is the most RLs sold ever sinve 1996 when the switched the name to RL. November sales of the RL were 1941cars..

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I just have to respond to this one. Like someone else pointed out. What else is left to read?

Seriously though, I haven't read the full 7 pages or whatever but only about the first 4 pages. The comparisons are crazy. Comparing a Cadillac to a Perlude or TL, or some even talk about Civics. Also, one of the more heavy posters there praise the variable valve timing in the Northstar V8 and then asked the question why would anyone care about VTEC? Give me a break. VTEC is simply Honda's version of Variable Vavle Timing and cam Lift. Just like How Lexus calls it VVTi (Similar to iVTEC). Anyway, I saw no real value in that cadillac topic other than GM makes some of the most reliable cars right up there with Lexus. Most of the people posting on that topic are getting their cars mixed up, specs mixed up. There hardly was any facts in that thread. I mean, opnions are fine, but they need to back it up with real facts not made up wrong facts.

rai

Just in case you're looking for more RL talk. There's a thread just like this one at www.s2ki.com (car talk forum) -->>CLICK

At least one guy is buying an RL.

Well it's a lot of the same, some say "It's no 5-series etc..."

I'm more interested in the GS300. But i'm worried the small V6 will let me down(it's a little bit bigger than the V6 in my Passat from 1998). All my cars/vans/SUVs have V6s (except my S2k), and IMO if I buy a $50K 38xx lb car I'd want a bigger V6.

If Lexus could match the RL or the M35 in power and displacement, we'd have a clear winner (The GS IMO). But on paper it looks like the GS doesn't want what I call a "no regrets" V6. meaning if you buy a big V6 you don't regret not buying the V8.

Time will tell.

SecPole14

No more talk!

I think this discussion about the RL is finally OV3ARRRRRRR!!!!!1111one1one~~

LexFather

Well maybe we can go into what designates a "luxury car". Since we all have stated, that many features that were only found of luxury cars can be had on cheaper cars. I think wantanewlex stated the Mazda 3 can have NAV (and when I do see a loaded model, it does look more expensive than it should be).

Clearly, Power windowlocks are nothing. But Auto all windows up/down is not used by everyone.
One touch sunrooofs?The quality of leather? You can buy a Kia with leather. Of course it will never be the same quality as a top luxury car but for all intenets and purposes, many 25k-30k owners of non-luxury cars can say they have wood (grain), leather, NAV, power everything, HIDs, etc.

So is this where the intangilbles come in? "God is in the details".

New thread here

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...hreadid=142513
This topic closes on a postive note and I will lock to keep some overzealous RL lover from digging it up.