LexFather

I am trying to get that real Big song, but not really feeling it. Notice u mentions Benz and Lexus and not Infiniti (no one ever raps about Infiniti).

thread turning back

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Infiniti has some hard obstacles to overcome right now, the first being that there isn't a lot of money for the division to throw around and they don't have financial backing like how Lexus has Toyota. Nissan hasn't exactly been a successful company over the last few years as their portfolio of failures include the new Maxima, Quest, Pathfinder, Q45 and M45. The fact that the Q45 has been a complete failure has hurt the company...a lot, and I belive they're just starting to see profits with the G35 which has been their best selling model. One thing they do have going for them though is performance at a time when the market is swinging back towards wanting more HP, bigger wheels, and more overall "punch".

The second thing Infiniti has a problem with is it's brand image. To build a successful and prestigeous brand that people will feel inspired to buy into, just like 1SickLex said, you have to have top end models because that glitz does trickle down to the rest of the lineup, and if for nothing else, because they wear the same badge. You can't tell me that IS300/ES330 buyers don't have something to aspire toward when they go to buy or service their car and their are GS430s, LX470s, SC430s and LS430s around. The whole reason behind Lexus coming out with one or two $100,000 models in the next year or so is because they have the ability to take their image to the next level. People are saying they would buy a Lexus product that was $100,000 or more. Infiniti's only successful models have been their entry level ones- G35 and FX35/45. Is that a bad thing? No, but it's going to keep them from becoming a power player in the luxury world that contains heavy weights like Audi, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar. They will remain near luxury if their more expensive cars don't sell, and I don't think that Infiniti can be profitable for Nissan as simply an entry level luxury company. The fact that their midline and upper line sedans have failed have severely hurt their brand image, and it's something they're going to have to rebuild...quickly. The new M is a start and it looks like the first car that Infiniti has put considerable time into. The G35 is nice, but like many Nissan products, it doesn't really cut it as a "full-circle" automobile. A fast engine and firm suspension are nice, but Toyota's own Corolla LE has a more plush and inviting interior than the G. The M looks good, has a great looking interior, offers big engines and AWD, and will offer the reliability that people expect from any Japanese brand. If the M succeeds, things will shine a bit brighter for Infiniti's future and that could lead to a bigger and better Q, plus a midsize coupe/convertible, another SUV, and eventually other high end products, like a possible sports car.

The third problem they have really goes back to the first issue of money, but warmed over Nissans with extra wood are NOT going to cut it. The QX56 feels like a tin can compared to the 7 year old LX470. The interior is exactly like the Armadas, which is a complete abomination in itself. Yes the LX borrows heavily from the Land Cruiser, but that's a much better starting place than the Armada. If Infiniti does decide to gussy up the new Pathfinder and offer another QX4, I really hope they're going to do more than what they did with the QX56. They'll need to rework several of the interior surfaces and get rid of some of the quirky crap that the truck has, such as the door handles on the rear doors. I know they're an Infiniti/Nissan trademark, but they're retarded and noone I know likes them. Infiniti needs to start spendind CONSIDERABLE time with their new products, and again, the M looks like a good start. They are attracting plenty of people into their showrooms with the G35s, and once they start and offer a lineup of cars that people will actually want to buy, they might be able to coax some people who want a G35 into a M35, or people who want a M45 into a Q45.

Time will tell, but the bottom line is that Infiniti needs well engineered, competitive, and bold products that AREN'T cutting any corners, and they're going to have to start from the bottom up to do it. The G35 has formed a VERY solid foundation for the company to build on, and now they're going to introduce a kick-*** M35 and M45. People WILL step up to these cars because it's not as big of a leap as it was before...$32,000 G35 or $50,000 Q45 (lets skip the poor excuse of a midsize currently called the M45). When the new M series succeeds they need to offer a bad *** Q45 that will attract the M45 buyers who will be trading their cars in or coming off leases. It's all about keeping people within your brand, and right now, Infiniti has nothing to offer former G35 owners aside from another G35. Like I said, the new M looks like a very, very good start.

-Michael-

videcormeum

* You have PM *



M.

LexFather

There are 3 Mikes on this page. And all genuises! That was a great, well written piece and I agree 100%.

SecPole14

Like Sadaam Huessein and Osama bin Laden?

Forget a throwback, I look clean in my white-t.


/hijack

-J-P-L-

I'll make two seperated comments based on previous posts.

- The fact that Infiniti has been forced to discontinue model lines has definately had a bad impact on brand
image. Lexus has never discontinued a model designation. Lexus got their plans right from their inception always using the same model designation schemes (two letters and three numbers). Notice Acura has made the same mistake originally having names like Legend, Vigor, Integra ect. and then changing to letters. Constantly dropping model names is what cheap car companys are known for (particularly American). A truly respected luxury make can't follow these patterns.

- The argument that much more if not all luxury models should be offered with a manual isn't realy realistic
in the market place. Sure, we'd all love to see it, but that's partly because we're auto enthusiasts. The reality is, is that it's expensive to engineer both transmissions especially when the manuals barely sell
especially in the luxury segment. BMW does it because their expected to and because it's focused more as a driver's car than a luxury car. If Lexus offered a true 5 or 6 speed manual even in the sporty GS, how many would actually sell? A very, very small %.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Another thing about transmissions- I think todays automatics are getting so advanced that they're about as fast as manuals. If you look closely at many cars that offer manuals AND automatics, the automatic is typically short a gear compared to the automatic. For example- Camry used to offer 4AT and a 5MT, Celica GT-S a 4AT or 6MT, BMW 3 series 5AT or 6MT. The IS is one of those few cars that offers the same amount of gears in either transmission, but what I'm saying is that if there are more gears in the manual version then "duh" it's already going to be faster from the start. Now a days though we have trannys such as Lexus' new 6 Speed, Close Ratio Automatic. I think you'd be hardpressed to get any better numbers out of the LS430 for instance if they offered a 6MT (although that would NEVER happen in a car in this class, I'm just using it as an example). I think the same will hold true for the new GS430 and 300. More gears means you can upshift quicker which means you reach speed quicker. Aside from the personal enjoyment of a manual transmission, I'm not sure there's much of a performance advantage in shifting your own gears anymore. I think the gap between Automatic and manual performance in the same model car with the same engine and same number of gears has narrowed significantly.

Just IMO though.

-Michael-

SecPole14

Doesn't matter. How many 525i with 6MT do you think BMW sells? Not many. The point is perception. If Lexus would offer more manuals, they would earn more respect from the BMW crowd, etc. and come across a little more sporty in general.


I agree with you about the technology, the new auto/semi trannys are beating manuals in terms of speed. But increasingly, people buy manuals for the "feel." To many, perhaps giving up .2s would be worth it in exchange for that total "driver-car connection."

By the way, I just want to welcome you and say that I really like your posts and arguments, very well thought-out and substantial. CL could use more members like you. I hope you plan to stick around for a long time.

doug_999

Couple of comments
First off, I think for the last two years, it has been reported that the I35 was being dropped. This year they are probably serious. Also I read the M45 is gone now too - until the new one comes out. The fact remains the I35 was a LOT of car for the money and not bad looking - especially with the sport package (but try and find one of those!).

Next comment... I give Infiniti credit for dropping cars. The fact is the QX4 was not the best image setter. A decent car for Infiniti to have at the time but long term it did not help their reputation. Same for the G20 - a 4 cyl car doesn't cut it for a car company that wants to be considered luxury. So personally, I just don't see them dropping cars to be an issue - as long as they keep coming out with hits like the G35, new M45, etc.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I agree with you about how more manuals would help to change their image a bit. One thing to remember though, Japanese automakers are typically the most efficient and most value minded of the automakers. It's rare to see them do something that will not be cost effective, such as how the Camry, Solara, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, ES330 and RX330 all use the same basic chassis, mechanicals, and engines. It's moves like this that allow Toyota to be more profitable than GM, Ford and Chrysler combined. I don't think that Lexus would hesitate to offer more manuals if the market was demanding them, and right now more and more people are buying automatics . The sales of IS300 5Spd sales have been dismal, which isn't going to persuade the company to consider expanding the number of cars that offer a manual transmission. There are cars however that should have a manual available regardless IMO. Small sporty, RWD cars like the IS should definitely have one, the SC430 should have one, and I think that Lexus upcoming AMG/M style cars should offer manual transmissions. All in all I agree with you that introducing more manuals, even if they sold them in small numbers, would help them gain a bit more credibility in the "sport" department. To really think about it though, I think Lexus could make manuals profitable or at least not lose money on them. If they use the same DI 3.0L V-6 in the upcoming IS that they're going to use in the GS, there are two cars right there that could already use the same transmission. There's also expected to be a 3.5L 285HP version of that same engine in the next IS, so there's a third model that could offer a manual option. They also use the same 4.3L V-8 across much of their lineup, which tells me that the GS430 and SC430 could use the same transmission, and again I've heard about a V-8 making it's way into the next IS as the top of the line right there. Already, there are six possible cars/configurations that could use the same two transmissions. It might work if Lexus really wanted it to.


Thanks! I'm only 17 but I've been interested in the automotive industry since a very young age and I've gained a lot of knowlege about the automotive world as a business, a hobby, a way to make a living (I currently work at a Toyota dealership), a passion, and really a way to enrich peoples lives. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have places like this to come and argue/discuss cars . Car and Driver is the other place I frequently post, but I've enjoyed posting here thus far!

-Michael-

legendary

Wow...

There is not much more that I can say -- MP, you hit the nail on the head. Great post!

And this post is great...good job Sick and everyone.

My .10 on this....Inifiniti/Nissan has been floundering, with the only success since the OLD days of the Q45 being the G35/FX. But, as mentioned before, the aspiration to go to the next vehicle is NOT there. I mean, when I trade in my G35 coupe...am I going to WANT to get the next level up? The M45? The Q45?
Probably not. And in the case of the QX56 vs. the Armada and LX470/Landcruiser....simple. The Landcruiser is very luxurious inside. The LX470 build on that, and has the panache and namesake. Folks will buy (repeat buyers, Lexus lovers, etc) Also, the panache is there. So, as mentioned before, it can roll up....it has to START @ the flagship.

Plus - most folks that buy these cars are happy from a service standpoint, reliablility, and its even cool that they are glamorized in movies, tv shows, videos and songs.

Grand slam.

Trexus

In my opinion dropping models means failure. If a model can stand the test of time, there is history behind it. For lexample the legendary Toyota Land Cruiser has been around for a long time and no one can deny that. The LX 470 is based off the Toyota Land Cruiser which means the LX must be reliable and so on. The Nissian Armada is very new and has no history what so ever. Do you think the Q by 56 is going to be reliable and so on? I'm not trying to bash Nissan/Infiniti but it's just my observation. Remeber awhile back there was a thread discussing about which automaker would pull out of the U.S.? Maybe Infiniti might pull out of the U.S.? Lexus has come so far and still has a way to go, but Infiniti is having a difficult time fumbling out of the starting gate.

KrazyLexus

Well Infiniti is doing very well in some cases. Maybe not sales, but customer service, and reliability, the cars show it.

Toyota and Lexus have discontinued cars as well. So I guess we shall call those failures as well.

Gojirra99

LS, ES, GS, SC, IS, RX, GX, LX, these are all models Lexus have had since it's existence began 15 years ago, & they're all still available. Which Lexus model have been discontinued ?

KrazyLexus

Well then if you think that way...

G series = G20, G35
QX series = QX56, QX4
I Series = discontinued
FX series = FX35/45 new line, can't compare
M series = M30, M35/M45 still going
Q series = Q45

So the only line I see actually discontined is the I series.

So then that makes this arguement mute. But then we can all call the IS300 a failure too, since its sales have dropped drastically.