HKGS300

I guess like most current products, everything is becoming a consumer product ... products that stay good for too long are not helping the sales revenue for these companies...

So nowadays ... you are consuming a MB in x years

Dlewbell

Wow! My first car was a 76 300D, but it died around 290000 Miles. Of course, my grandad used it for a work truck from the day he got it new to the time he quit driving it, and then it sat under a pine tree and collected rust. Then when I got it, I drove it harder than it was ever designed to be driven. All our abuse and it still made it that far. God that was a good car.

mmarshall

So then why is Lexus build quality so high? The better they get, the more they sell. They are already the #1 luxury car make now in the U.S...now that Chris Bangle and Co. have messed up the new Bimmers.

M-B built what were probably the best cars in the world, quality-wise, until about the mid-1990's. Since then they have become almost junk, albeit SAFE junk.....they (and Volvo) still build the world's most crashworthy cars, but the hardware and electronics on M-B products have deteriorated sharply..

Dynasty SC

i agree... up to somewhere in the 90's mercedes benz built the most reliable cars ive ever seen. those old benzes run forever! i still think they are the best designed luxury cars... benz messed up with their new designs and to me, lexus has begun to look like run of the mill toyota

jet864

We used to have an old Benz diesel wagon. It was so funny looking and smelled so bad, it took me a while to realize MB was a LUXURY company. I thought they were cheapo family movers. That thing ran for a while though. Even after I drove it into the garage wall from my car seat.

James

SecPole14

Wrong. That's old thinking. MB and Volvo lost those exclusive rights long ago. Even Saab's claim to build safe cars has been proven to less than accurate with respect to older models...Some of the test results are downright frightening. I would never get into one of the older Saabs and feel safe. The current 9-3 and 9-5 are the first truly safe cars Saab has ever produced.

Go to IIHS or EuroNCAP.

Look at the first S40 (which was really a Mitsubishi). Look at the S60. Look at the early years of the previous E-Klasse. Look at the side-impact rating for the C-Klasse.

Not anywhere near class-leading. Now, the Japanese have taken the crown. Honda, Toyota, and even Subaru have been EXCEPTIONALLY agressive in designing safe cars since the late '90s, and have yet to founder in any significant manner.

When properly equipped (in models where side airbags are optional), they always score at the top of their class.

And when they don't, they're fixed. Case in point: the RAV4. Safest small SUV ever tested. The ES330 just got top marks.

You're right though. In an effort to make high-performance high-priority, the Europeans have seemed to slip a little (or a LOT in some cases) on their traditional hallmarks of safety and quality.

More than anyone else, I trust the Japanese to design the safest cars. Even the French regularly upstage the Germans in this regard.

rdollie

The older data from the past 5-10 years shows a clear trend. Volvo and Saab have consistently scored better overall than other brands. The old 5 series BMW did just as well.

If you look at mid-sized Volvos from a few years back in EuroNCAP tests they earned 4 stars when comparable Mercedes cars made 2 stars (this was a few years back when the max was 4 stars and not 5 as is the case now.)

If you look at IIHS rear impact injury studies you will find that Saab and Volvo do VERY well and Volvo's WHIPs system scores are the benchmark standard. If you look at the old Volvo S40 it too earned 4 stars as I recall in older EuroNCAP tests whereas its competitors earned two. It consistently performed near or at the top of its class while the Mitsu Charisma (which shares floor pan and some minor stampings) never came close (despite there common Nedcar operation these cars were very different in real world factors.)

If you look at overall exec car scores from a couple years back Saab 9-5 and Volvo S80 go back and forth for first or second place in just about every category. BMW 5 was very high as well.

If you look at NHTSA results the Volvo S80 was the first to earn 5-stars all the way around. The new S40 does very well also.

While an individual Saab or Volvo may not ALWAYS be the best in EVERY test by every testing organization I see nothing that consistently scores as high. Some Japanese cars that do very well in some tests for a given testing organization do not so good in other tests from another organization. Let there be no doubt - Honda and Subaru and some others have really gained ground quickly and have earned top scores in some tests but I do not see the level of consistency I see with Saab and Volvo and to some extent BMW. Mercedes is getting much better all of a sudden (after years of mis-steps like following Volvo to market with inferior door mounted side-impact airbags instead of seat mounted; BabySmart car seat that didn't deactivate airbags as designed; the infamous A-class moose test mishap; etc.)

Japanese makes have made great gains but companies committed to safety don't make it optional (you couldn't even get side impact airbags on an Acura TL just a few years back when they were standard on some other cars.) In a few more years we may have enough data to say the Japanese have taken the safety crown but I just don't see enough evidence yet to tip the scales - yet.

SC300Es

Didn't you guys see the SC with 138M miles?

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...hreadid=135914

SecPole14

So you're choosing to ignore the consistent performance of Lexus, getting top ranks since the mid-90s? Furthermore, in saying this, it's as if you expect Lexus not to continue the trend? Find me a current Lexus model or one from even 5 years ago that has not earned top scores?????

Additionally, side-curtain SRS for all rows will be standard on every Honda vehicle by '06, and ABS as well. Toyota will follow suit.

So what if the S80 was the first? Maybe they tested it FIRST? I don't care about the 9-5 and I don't care about the new S40. The point is that Saab and Volvo have been pushing safety as number 1 even when cars like the S40, S60, and previous 9-3 were being out-scored by Japanese competition. Those were entry-level models they used to lure customers in. Not cool.

Come again?

rdollie

I'm afraid you're a bit off in your analysis. Yes, I agree Lexus/Toyota has done a very good job of late on the safety front as backed up by crash test numbers.

However, the question here seems to be whether companies like Saab and Volvo are still leading. You can't compare cars that were developed by Euro luxo makers much earlier than the most recent Toyota/Subaru/Honda makes.

You specifically mentioned Volvo's P2 cars (e.g., S80.) Well these have been on the market since 1998 so they're getting a bit long in the teeth. In this specific case if you want to see if they are still an innovator in the safety arena you have to look at their most recent releases (e.g., S40/V50, XC90, etc.) When you evaluate the most recent Volvos against say the most recent Lexus models you will find that firms like Saab and Volvo do seem to still have a bit of an edge (e.g., these Euro makes had side-impact airbags and or side curtains standards well ahead of the market; the Volvo XC90 is still the only SUV you can't flip in an emergency avoidance maneuver UNLESS you hit something like a curb, vehicle, etc. and it is still the only one with full curtains (and side curtains have been standard on all Volvos for a few years now) for all three rows of seating I think; also the XC90 in particular has a Boron roof which is MUCH stronger than traditional steel alloys in an accident; all Volvos come with WHIPs standard and have for a few years now; then there's safety gadgets like Volvo's BLIS, Mercedes Pre-safe, etc.) Yes, Japanese makes are starting to gain in this area and close the gap but I think there is still a gap. In the case of Saab it doesn't seem GM has been putting a lot of money into future safety investments just given Saab's poor financial condition. However in the case of Volvo, Ford has actively taken Volvo innovations and spread them across other brands and they have committed to sending EVERY new model under the Ford umbrella (e.g., Ford, Lincoln, Aston Martin, Jag, Land Rover) through Volvo's Safety Engineering center during development. It seems to me BMW and Volvo in particular will have funding to continue to make safety innovations and maintain a gap with the rest of the world but firms like Saab and to a lesser extent Mercedes might find themselves passed by Honda/Subaru/Toyota in a short period of time.

If the Japanese brands decide to really start addressing 'performance' as we are seeing more and more (think SH-AWD) and safety I think with their legendary reliability it could be a VERY bad time for ALL Euro makes in a few years (including Audi,BMW, Mercedes, Saab, and Volvo.) Maybe BMW will have to buy Honda afterall to survive...(of course the two corporate cultures could never co-exist so I'm just kidding here.)