Lexus is Toyota. Good or bad? In-depth discussion inside
10-20-04 | 06:18 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14,523
Likes: 3
From: new jersey
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Threxx, incredible discussion. We need more of this. I hope my thoughts help some.
First, people need to understand that no matter WHAT a car is badged, if the product is worth it, why fuss over a badge.
For instande, the LS 430 aka Toyota Celsior is hailed as pretty much the grandest sedan for the money. Lexus/Toyota made it that way, invested in the R&D to make it the best. It costs 72k loaded!
So no matter if it's BADGED a Lexus or a Toyota, its still a 72k car! You cannot take that away.
As for BMW, they are the most profitable company behind Porsche. So CLEARLY, their products are over-priced. I can't find the article but they are BOLD and ARROGANT. A spokesperson said about the new 5 series 'yes it does cost more than everyone else and it should, its the best and people will pay"WTF? This is the same company telling PEOPLE "we are too dumb to understand their styling direction".WTF?
BMWs do have HUGE UNIONS to pay. it is a problem in Germany, the stranglehold the Unions have. This increases cost. BMW has another issue. Bitkauha asked me at a meet once "where do we get our electronics from"? I said "Japan". He said correct, so why should I think a German made car with computers will work?
Excellent point. As computers are more and more important in cars, it wil cause the Germans most issues. Just look at the NAV. Look at Lexus/Infiniti/Acura Nav to Benz/BMW/Audi. Its not even close. That is why tons of BMW/Benz owners SWEAR the older cars are better built. No money needed for computers. It was invested in the car. Sitting in a 20 year old BMW/Benz feels like a bank vault still.
BMW has proven, build your BRAND, build cars people want, even if it's handful of M3s/M5s etc and let that trickle down to 325s and 1-series cars. Build sporty cars and an IMAGE of superiority and people will buy it. They have. BMW is still FAMILY owned. Toyota is one of the largest companies in the WORLD. Both are highly profitable.
Now your missing a key thing. Toyota maybe the ONLY company to WORK WITH suppliers! In the end, it makes a better product. If suppliers cannot figure out a quality product, Toyota will SEND ENGINEERS to help!
Compare this with GM for instance, basically SQUEEZING suppliers ***** until they just drop the ball. (lol). That is why their interiors are cheap, why they rattle after 3 months. The suppliers have to cut costs as they fight for the lOWEST BID to keep their contract.
You did know the Space Shuttle is built by the LOWEST bidders right?
That is why TOyota is the best built car. A car is not ALL TOYOTA. Frame, engine, a couple other things, that is about it. The rest is OUTSOURCED.
I do agree with wantanewlex that tech trickles DOWN! Toyota is the best quality company. It is natural for their luxury division to extend this. Now lets look.
The Toyota Sienna is been called by every mag a "lexus van". Its that well built.
The ES is the more reliable car and more luxurious for the price. This trickles to the Camry, which has been the best seller the past 4 years.
Ya'll used the Highlander example.
The new Avalon will be a mini-LS 430.
Yes, Toyota does have size on it's side. But its bigger than that. They are the envy of the management business. They keep workers loyal and motivated. There is a certain PRIDE of building the best built cars. They also see long-term. That is why Toyota has TONS of SUVs now. Now they are going to be hybrid leaders.
As for the mergers, well yes, its to have worldwide cars. its also b/c the more expensive the car, the more profit. It's also b/c the smaller companies realize to survive they have to merge. But looking at Ford, their LandRover, Jaguar, Lincoln diviision are not doing well. Only Aston MArtin.
Threxx, incredible discussion. We need more of this. I hope my thoughts help some.
First, people need to understand that no matter WHAT a car is badged, if the product is worth it, why fuss over a badge.
For instande, the LS 430 aka Toyota Celsior is hailed as pretty much the grandest sedan for the money. Lexus/Toyota made it that way, invested in the R&D to make it the best. It costs 72k loaded!
So no matter if it's BADGED a Lexus or a Toyota, its still a 72k car! You cannot take that away.
As for BMW, they are the most profitable company behind Porsche. So CLEARLY, their products are over-priced. I can't find the article but they are BOLD and ARROGANT. A spokesperson said about the new 5 series 'yes it does cost more than everyone else and it should, its the best and people will pay"WTF? This is the same company telling PEOPLE "we are too dumb to understand their styling direction".WTF?
BMWs do have HUGE UNIONS to pay. it is a problem in Germany, the stranglehold the Unions have. This increases cost. BMW has another issue. Bitkauha asked me at a meet once "where do we get our electronics from"? I said "Japan". He said correct, so why should I think a German made car with computers will work?
Excellent point. As computers are more and more important in cars, it wil cause the Germans most issues. Just look at the NAV. Look at Lexus/Infiniti/Acura Nav to Benz/BMW/Audi. Its not even close. That is why tons of BMW/Benz owners SWEAR the older cars are better built. No money needed for computers. It was invested in the car. Sitting in a 20 year old BMW/Benz feels like a bank vault still.
BMW has proven, build your BRAND, build cars people want, even if it's handful of M3s/M5s etc and let that trickle down to 325s and 1-series cars. Build sporty cars and an IMAGE of superiority and people will buy it. They have. BMW is still FAMILY owned. Toyota is one of the largest companies in the WORLD. Both are highly profitable.
Now your missing a key thing. Toyota maybe the ONLY company to WORK WITH suppliers! In the end, it makes a better product. If suppliers cannot figure out a quality product, Toyota will SEND ENGINEERS to help!
Compare this with GM for instance, basically SQUEEZING suppliers ***** until they just drop the ball. (lol). That is why their interiors are cheap, why they rattle after 3 months. The suppliers have to cut costs as they fight for the lOWEST BID to keep their contract.
You did know the Space Shuttle is built by the LOWEST bidders right?
That is why TOyota is the best built car. A car is not ALL TOYOTA. Frame, engine, a couple other things, that is about it. The rest is OUTSOURCED.
I do agree with wantanewlex that tech trickles DOWN! Toyota is the best quality company. It is natural for their luxury division to extend this. Now lets look.
The Toyota Sienna is been called by every mag a "lexus van". Its that well built.
The ES is the more reliable car and more luxurious for the price. This trickles to the Camry, which has been the best seller the past 4 years.
Ya'll used the Highlander example.
The new Avalon will be a mini-LS 430.
Yes, Toyota does have size on it's side. But its bigger than that. They are the envy of the management business. They keep workers loyal and motivated. There is a certain PRIDE of building the best built cars. They also see long-term. That is why Toyota has TONS of SUVs now. Now they are going to be hybrid leaders.
As for the mergers, well yes, its to have worldwide cars. its also b/c the more expensive the car, the more profit. It's also b/c the smaller companies realize to survive they have to merge. But looking at Ford, their LandRover, Jaguar, Lincoln diviision are not doing well. Only Aston MArtin.
well said
very informative
thanks for sharing
10-20-04 | 06:53 PM
#18
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Compare this with GM for instance, basically SQUEEZING suppliers ***** until they just drop the ball. (lol). That is why their interiors are cheap, why they rattle after 3 months. The suppliers have to cut costs as they fight for the lOWEST BID to keep their contract.
Compare this with GM for instance, basically SQUEEZING suppliers ***** until they just drop the ball. (lol). That is why their interiors are cheap, why they rattle after 3 months. The suppliers have to cut costs as they fight for the lOWEST BID to keep their contract.
As many of you are well aware, a major steel shortage has been occuring for the last 10 months, with not much promise of a reprieve in sight. This shortage drove up carbon steel costs up to 2-1/2 times their value from December of 2003. China's construction growth has been exponential in the last couple of years and will continue to do so for the next several years. They are basically cramming our 100 year Industrial Revolution into a decade or two. As a result of this growth, they have consumed a large majority of the coking coal and scrap supply that the mills around the world use to make steel. So much so, that when China's points of entry became a logistical nightmare during the summer and their demand dropped a bit, prices fell 10-20%, only to shoot back up farther when they got everything sorted out and ramped back up again.
Now that you're completely bored with the state of the steel industry, on to the Big 3...Ford, GM, and Chrysler have many suppliers, many of which their sole business is comprised of the work they do for the auto industry. When the cost of steel skyrocketed at the beginning of the year (with very little or no warning), the Big 3 wouldn't accept any price increases from their suppliers. They made them honor all contracts or be fired, as they were not going to lose any of their margin dollars or pass any increases on to the consumers. This forced many manufaturers to close their doors forever, costing this country thousands of jobs. Heck, even the DOT allowed contractors to put surcharges and disclaimers about availability on their projects to protect their supply line from losing money.
How many people have lost their jobs and futures, so that we, the consumer, could save a few bucks on an overpriced, poorly crafted Big 3 automobile? To top that, they still have to do 0% financing and rebates to sell their vehicles. It's funny, but I can't recall Toyota, Honda, or Nissan having to resort to tactics like these to sell their cars.
I guess I'll get off my soapbox now...hope you all enjoyed the read!
10-20-04 | 08:28 PM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by phunkyGS
I couldn't have said it better myself, Mike. Being in the steel industry has opened my eyes to what the Big 3 do to their supply chains...
As many of you are well aware, a major steel shortage has been occuring for the last 10 months, with not much promise of a reprieve in sight. This shortage drove up carbon steel costs up to 2-1/2 times their value from December of 2003. China's construction growth has been exponential in the last couple of years and will continue to do so for the next several years. They are basically cramming our 100 year Industrial Revolution into a decade or two. As a result of this growth, they have consumed a large majority of the coking coal and scrap supply that the mills around the world use to make steel. So much so, that when China's points of entry became a logistical nightmare during the summer and their demand dropped a bit, prices fell 10-20%, only to shoot back up farther when they got everything sorted out and ramped back up again.
Now that you're completely bored with the state of the steel industry, on to the Big 3...Ford, GM, and Chrysler have many suppliers, many of which their sole business is comprised of the work they do for the auto industry. When the cost of steel skyrocketed at the beginning of the year (with very little or no warning), the Big 3 wouldn't accept any price increases from their suppliers. They made them honor all contracts or be fired, as they were not going to lose any of their margin dollars or pass any increases on to the consumers. This forced many manufaturers to close their doors forever, costing this country thousands of jobs. Heck, even the DOT allowed contractors to put surcharges and disclaimers about availability on their projects to protect their supply line from losing money.
How many people have lost their jobs and futures, so that we, the consumer, could save a few bucks on an overpriced, poorly crafted Big 3 automobile? To top that, they still have to do 0% financing and rebates to sell their vehicles. It's funny, but I can't recall Toyota, Honda, or Nissan having to resort to tactics like these to sell their cars.
I guess I'll get off my soapbox now...hope you all enjoyed the read!
I couldn't have said it better myself, Mike. Being in the steel industry has opened my eyes to what the Big 3 do to their supply chains...
As many of you are well aware, a major steel shortage has been occuring for the last 10 months, with not much promise of a reprieve in sight. This shortage drove up carbon steel costs up to 2-1/2 times their value from December of 2003. China's construction growth has been exponential in the last couple of years and will continue to do so for the next several years. They are basically cramming our 100 year Industrial Revolution into a decade or two. As a result of this growth, they have consumed a large majority of the coking coal and scrap supply that the mills around the world use to make steel. So much so, that when China's points of entry became a logistical nightmare during the summer and their demand dropped a bit, prices fell 10-20%, only to shoot back up farther when they got everything sorted out and ramped back up again.
Now that you're completely bored with the state of the steel industry, on to the Big 3...Ford, GM, and Chrysler have many suppliers, many of which their sole business is comprised of the work they do for the auto industry. When the cost of steel skyrocketed at the beginning of the year (with very little or no warning), the Big 3 wouldn't accept any price increases from their suppliers. They made them honor all contracts or be fired, as they were not going to lose any of their margin dollars or pass any increases on to the consumers. This forced many manufaturers to close their doors forever, costing this country thousands of jobs. Heck, even the DOT allowed contractors to put surcharges and disclaimers about availability on their projects to protect their supply line from losing money.
How many people have lost their jobs and futures, so that we, the consumer, could save a few bucks on an overpriced, poorly crafted Big 3 automobile? To top that, they still have to do 0% financing and rebates to sell their vehicles. It's funny, but I can't recall Toyota, Honda, or Nissan having to resort to tactics like these to sell their cars.
I guess I'll get off my soapbox now...hope you all enjoyed the read!
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