Sad, NSX, S2000, Type-R Integra no-more
11-05-04, 04:05 PM
#31
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What a shame.
I'm just as disappointed as anyone about the death of most of the markets sports cars but we can't fairly blame the automakers. Can we really expect acura to continue building a car that sells about 10 units a month? The Supra, RX-7, 3000GT, ect. didn't sell and therefore they had to end them. Keeping these cars in production creates a loss for these companies and few companies will continue to sell without profit.
Most people love sports cars. This doesn't mean they buy them though. They buy trucks, SUV's, & sedans. This is the reality. We often complain about the amount of SUV's on the market but they sell and they sell a lot. Consumers are to blame for what a company decides to build and not build.
It's hard to believe that the world's 2 largest automaker (Toyota) no longer builds a real sports car (once the Celica and MR2 are discontinued). I think Toyota (as the biggest profit maker in the industry can afford to build an entry level sports car and a REAL sporst car (think Supra) even if they don't make much of a profit off them. If Dodge can build the Viper for example, then Toyota can certainly bring back the Supra.
I'm just as disappointed as anyone about the death of most of the markets sports cars but we can't fairly blame the automakers. Can we really expect acura to continue building a car that sells about 10 units a month? The Supra, RX-7, 3000GT, ect. didn't sell and therefore they had to end them. Keeping these cars in production creates a loss for these companies and few companies will continue to sell without profit.
Most people love sports cars. This doesn't mean they buy them though. They buy trucks, SUV's, & sedans. This is the reality. We often complain about the amount of SUV's on the market but they sell and they sell a lot. Consumers are to blame for what a company decides to build and not build.
It's hard to believe that the world's 2 largest automaker (Toyota) no longer builds a real sports car (once the Celica and MR2 are discontinued). I think Toyota (as the biggest profit maker in the industry can afford to build an entry level sports car and a REAL sporst car (think Supra) even if they don't make much of a profit off them. If Dodge can build the Viper for example, then Toyota can certainly bring back the Supra.
11-05-04, 04:23 PM
#32
Super Moderator
Originally posted by JLSC4
I think Toyota (as the biggest profit maker in the industry can afford to build an entry level sports car and a REAL sporst car (think Supra) even if they don't make much of a profit off them. If Dodge can build the Viper for example, then Toyota can certainly bring back the Supra.
I think Toyota (as the biggest profit maker in the industry can afford to build an entry level sports car and a REAL sporst car (think Supra) even if they don't make much of a profit off them. If Dodge can build the Viper for example, then Toyota can certainly bring back the Supra.
& a real supercar on top of that !!
Last edited by Gojirra99; 11-05-04 at 04:24 PM.
11-05-04, 04:50 PM
#34
Lexus Champion
Nah. It's not. In its new and stock form, the RSX is too expensive for most of ricers to afford.
Maybe it will be in 10 years if it's all dented up, with unpainted aftermarket knock off fiberglass bumpers, a can exhaust.
Jon
Maybe it will be in 10 years if it's all dented up, with unpainted aftermarket knock off fiberglass bumpers, a can exhaust.
Jon
Originally posted by DC52E55
haha.. all good. i was just joking and i admit that my car is ricy.
haha.. all good. i was just joking and i admit that my car is ricy.
11-05-04, 05:01 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
Very good points.
However, as a car enthusiast I think car makers should keep a couple of "bench mark" or "image" models whether such model make profits or not.
This is contrary to your typical supply and demand economic theory. However, I believe certain car models do give that much needed "soul" to a car company.
For example, think of the name "Supra". It's catchy and can be immediately recognized as a Toyota. It's also considered a piece of machinery that showcases the car manufacturer's capability in building great performance cars.
Think of the name "Esprit". While it's true that it doesn't really sell, and it doesn't really give much return to Lotus, to me it's such an ever green name that it will always give the pubic of its maker, Lotus.
The same goes for cars such as Corvette and Cyclone. Without them, I would not even be remotely interested in the Chevrolet and GMC name plates.
The name "Suburban" just doesn't impress me with anything other than telling me that Chevy is good at building big SUVs that are good for carrying coffins.
Jon
However, as a car enthusiast I think car makers should keep a couple of "bench mark" or "image" models whether such model make profits or not.
This is contrary to your typical supply and demand economic theory. However, I believe certain car models do give that much needed "soul" to a car company.
For example, think of the name "Supra". It's catchy and can be immediately recognized as a Toyota. It's also considered a piece of machinery that showcases the car manufacturer's capability in building great performance cars.
Think of the name "Esprit". While it's true that it doesn't really sell, and it doesn't really give much return to Lotus, to me it's such an ever green name that it will always give the pubic of its maker, Lotus.
The same goes for cars such as Corvette and Cyclone. Without them, I would not even be remotely interested in the Chevrolet and GMC name plates.
The name "Suburban" just doesn't impress me with anything other than telling me that Chevy is good at building big SUVs that are good for carrying coffins.
Jon
Originally posted by JLSC4
What a shame.
I'm just as disappointed as anyone about the death of most of the markets sports cars but we can't fairly blame the automakers. Can we really expect acura to continue building a car that sells about 10 units a month? The Supra, RX-7, 3000GT, ect. didn't sell and therefore they had to end them. Keeping these cars in production creates a loss for these companies and few companies will continue to sell without profit.
Most people love sports cars. This doesn't mean they buy them though. They buy trucks, SUV's, & sedans. This is the reality. We often complain about the amount of SUV's on the market but they sell and they sell a lot. Consumers are to blame for what a company decides to build and not build.
It's hard to believe that the world's 2 largest automaker (Toyota) no longer builds a real sports car (once the Celica and MR2 are discontinued). I think Toyota (as the biggest profit maker in the industry can afford to build an entry level sports car and a REAL sporst car (think Supra) even if they don't make much of a profit off them. If Dodge can build the Viper for example, then Toyota can certainly bring back the Supra.
What a shame.
I'm just as disappointed as anyone about the death of most of the markets sports cars but we can't fairly blame the automakers. Can we really expect acura to continue building a car that sells about 10 units a month? The Supra, RX-7, 3000GT, ect. didn't sell and therefore they had to end them. Keeping these cars in production creates a loss for these companies and few companies will continue to sell without profit.
Most people love sports cars. This doesn't mean they buy them though. They buy trucks, SUV's, & sedans. This is the reality. We often complain about the amount of SUV's on the market but they sell and they sell a lot. Consumers are to blame for what a company decides to build and not build.
It's hard to believe that the world's 2 largest automaker (Toyota) no longer builds a real sports car (once the Celica and MR2 are discontinued). I think Toyota (as the biggest profit maker in the industry can afford to build an entry level sports car and a REAL sporst car (think Supra) even if they don't make much of a profit off them. If Dodge can build the Viper for example, then Toyota can certainly bring back the Supra.
11-05-04, 05:59 PM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well a lot of it is styling. Look at the 3 coupe and G35c. Gorgous cars. If your going to be a coupe, you HAVE to have either PERFECT, classic proportions or drop dead gorgous. You can try flavor of the month styling but after the 1st year, sales will plummet. There is a coupe market but the coupe we have been offered just makes me scratch my head.
The other thing is the rise in performance in sedans. Look at the GS 400/430. It's faster than most coupes. WIth space for 4 and a trunk. Let alone E55s, WRXs, EVOs etc. Look at all the new Suburu's. As fast or faster than a 350Z. With space. So why buy a coupe????? In the past, you HAD to pretty much buy a coupe to have a fast car. Not any longer.
Third as you all mentioned, SUVs. Not just the fact people want them. Also the fact they are CASH COWS.
Fourth, you can just have idiots run your company. Look at the Eclipse. The turbo 1st and 2nd gen cars had a very hardcore audience. They are GREAT looking cars. And you can mod them. What do they do with the 3rd gen? They make it bigger, hella uglier and add a pedestrian V-6, no more AWD, no more turbo. So THEY shot themeselves in the foot. Don't blame the market.
The Celica just looked too damn weird and costed too much. The MR-2 had 138hp and was a 25k car!!!!
I agree with Baby about a "Halo" car. I think that is how the NSX has lasted so long.
The other thing is the rise in performance in sedans. Look at the GS 400/430. It's faster than most coupes. WIth space for 4 and a trunk. Let alone E55s, WRXs, EVOs etc. Look at all the new Suburu's. As fast or faster than a 350Z. With space. So why buy a coupe????? In the past, you HAD to pretty much buy a coupe to have a fast car. Not any longer.
Third as you all mentioned, SUVs. Not just the fact people want them. Also the fact they are CASH COWS.
Fourth, you can just have idiots run your company. Look at the Eclipse. The turbo 1st and 2nd gen cars had a very hardcore audience. They are GREAT looking cars. And you can mod them. What do they do with the 3rd gen? They make it bigger, hella uglier and add a pedestrian V-6, no more AWD, no more turbo. So THEY shot themeselves in the foot. Don't blame the market.
The Celica just looked too damn weird and costed too much. The MR-2 had 138hp and was a 25k car!!!!
I agree with Baby about a "Halo" car. I think that is how the NSX has lasted so long.
11-05-04, 08:27 PM
#37
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Well lets not forget the discontinued Honda Del Sol and Prelude. This current gen Accord Coupe was made trying to attract ex Prelude buyers. Also include the Acura-CL which is gone as well.
But honestly, with real sports cars now from 20-30k, 350z, RX-8, WRX etc and the resurgance of RWD you can go elsewhere. The current Civic coupe and the Si hatchback are awful. The previous 2 generations were much better, you will even notice how few 3rd gen coupes you see modded.
The coupe market is tough. Give Honda credit for supplying coupes and trying to sell them. Others gave up a long time ago.
Well lets not forget the discontinued Honda Del Sol and Prelude. This current gen Accord Coupe was made trying to attract ex Prelude buyers. Also include the Acura-CL which is gone as well.
But honestly, with real sports cars now from 20-30k, 350z, RX-8, WRX etc and the resurgance of RWD you can go elsewhere. The current Civic coupe and the Si hatchback are awful. The previous 2 generations were much better, you will even notice how few 3rd gen coupes you see modded.
The coupe market is tough. Give Honda credit for supplying coupes and trying to sell them. Others gave up a long time ago.
and the introduction of the s2k was more like a statement that honda can still do it (outside of the nsx). i think that's a great idea, but man, if they take it away as well together with the nsx, gosh..... accord coupe is going to be the only 2 door "sport" car possibly from honda?!?!?!?!
11-06-04, 03:08 PM
#38
coupe fever
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
So why buy a coupe????? In the past, you HAD to pretty much buy a coupe to have a fast car. Not any longer.
Why a coupe? Some people are like me....6-2, 270 lbs. Only a few sedans offer the space and legroom I need. Most importantly is the big long door for entry and exit. Most sedans have smaller entry/exit openings with short doors. As I get older my middle has gooten bigger. All the more reason for the big door opening. I've always had coupes as my daily driver....except once. Had a J30 and was miserable for the 3 years I drove it. Loved the car but hated getting in and out of it. Plenty of cars have power these days but only a few have the big door opening I love.
So why buy a coupe????? In the past, you HAD to pretty much buy a coupe to have a fast car. Not any longer.
Why a coupe? Some people are like me....6-2, 270 lbs. Only a few sedans offer the space and legroom I need. Most importantly is the big long door for entry and exit. Most sedans have smaller entry/exit openings with short doors. As I get older my middle has gooten bigger. All the more reason for the big door opening. I've always had coupes as my daily driver....except once. Had a J30 and was miserable for the 3 years I drove it. Loved the car but hated getting in and out of it. Plenty of cars have power these days but only a few have the big door opening I love.
11-06-04, 08:26 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
I'm not sure here, though, if it is just money and profits. The NSX ? .....Yeah, that's a no-brainer. Even though some of us liked it and thought it was beautiful, it never really sold from day one. Doc was the only guy on the forum that I know of who actually bought one.....and I can't remember if THAT one was new or used. The main problems were that it was too expensive, didn't have a V8, and was hard to repair with its all-aluminum structure.
But the S2000 ? That one's a little tougher to figure out. It was not exhorbitantly priced, sold at least fairly well, ran and cornered like stink, and fit nicely in the 2-seater slot between the MR2's / Miatas below it and the Porsche Boxster above it. The only really negative thing about it (if you could fit into it) was that the engine was low on torque (typical of Honda fours) and you had to rev the engine to literally insane RPM's to get to its peak potential. In the original version the HP peak was at 8600 and the torque peak at 7600. These were revised down a little on later models. This may have turned the car off somewhat to people who didn't relish the thought of driving around at motorcycle RPM's all day.
But the S2000 ? That one's a little tougher to figure out. It was not exhorbitantly priced, sold at least fairly well, ran and cornered like stink, and fit nicely in the 2-seater slot between the MR2's / Miatas below it and the Porsche Boxster above it. The only really negative thing about it (if you could fit into it) was that the engine was low on torque (typical of Honda fours) and you had to rev the engine to literally insane RPM's to get to its peak potential. In the original version the HP peak was at 8600 and the torque peak at 7600. These were revised down a little on later models. This may have turned the car off somewhat to people who didn't relish the thought of driving around at motorcycle RPM's all day.
11-07-04, 08:18 PM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by mmarshall
I'm not sure here, though, if it is just money and profits. The NSX ? .....Yeah, that's a no-brainer. Even though some of us liked it and thought it was beautiful, it never really sold from day one. Doc was the only guy on the forum that I know of who actually bought one.....and I can't remember if THAT one was new or used. The main problems were that it was too expensive, didn't have a V8, and was hard to repair with its all-aluminum structure.
But the S2000 ? That one's a little tougher to figure out. It was not exhorbitantly priced, sold at least fairly well, ran and cornered like stink, and fit nicely in the 2-seater slot between the MR2's / Miatas below it and the Porsche Boxster above it. The only really negative thing about it (if you could fit into it) was that the engine was low on torque (typical of Honda fours) and you had to rev the engine to literally insane RPM's to get to its peak potential. In the original version the HP peak was at 8600 and the torque peak at 7600. These were revised down a little on later models. This may have turned the car off somewhat to people who didn't relish the thought of driving around at motorcycle RPM's all day.
I'm not sure here, though, if it is just money and profits. The NSX ? .....Yeah, that's a no-brainer. Even though some of us liked it and thought it was beautiful, it never really sold from day one. Doc was the only guy on the forum that I know of who actually bought one.....and I can't remember if THAT one was new or used. The main problems were that it was too expensive, didn't have a V8, and was hard to repair with its all-aluminum structure.
But the S2000 ? That one's a little tougher to figure out. It was not exhorbitantly priced, sold at least fairly well, ran and cornered like stink, and fit nicely in the 2-seater slot between the MR2's / Miatas below it and the Porsche Boxster above it. The only really negative thing about it (if you could fit into it) was that the engine was low on torque (typical of Honda fours) and you had to rev the engine to literally insane RPM's to get to its peak potential. In the original version the HP peak was at 8600 and the torque peak at 7600. These were revised down a little on later models. This may have turned the car off somewhat to people who didn't relish the thought of driving around at motorcycle RPM's all day.
Reggiek, great point about size. Cars are getting bigger and taller and wider ala SUVs
11-07-04, 10:41 PM
#41
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Yeah, I thought the S2000 was still selling well. Dealers are still marking the price up from my understanding.
Reggiek, great point about size. Cars are getting bigger and taller and wider ala SUVs
Yeah, I thought the S2000 was still selling well. Dealers are still marking the price up from my understanding.
Reggiek, great point about size. Cars are getting bigger and taller and wider ala SUVs
but up here in norcal those dealers are retarded. i went for a test drive, they said no coz' they dont' allow people to drive unless they BUY the car first. i was like wtf... and then i looked at the price tag and it says msrp + 3k markup. i tapped on the sales' shoulders and told him i won't buy a car that i can't test drive. he said he could work on the price, i told him to work on the test drive first
11-09-04, 04:33 PM
#43
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Sold my NSX thinking the next gen is coming out soon; what a mistake. Profitable or not, Honda does need a halo car to boost its image in the performance department. Guess I will have to count on the GTR.
11-09-04, 08:31 PM
#44
Originally posted by BLKSC400
Sold my NSX thinking the next gen is coming out soon; what a mistake. Profitable or not, Honda does need a halo car to boost its image in the performance department. Guess I will have to count on the GTR.
Sold my NSX thinking the next gen is coming out soon; what a mistake. Profitable or not, Honda does need a halo car to boost its image in the performance department. Guess I will have to count on the GTR.
11-10-04, 01:11 AM
#45
Originally posted by SC400-V8
Yup the car world. Really is going to crap fast.
The best time-era for cars in my opinion? 1990-95. Totally sweet, fresh new designs, Japanese luxury devisions kicking serious butt.... etc.
Now all the best cars are being discontinued left and right.
I cannot believe the NSX AND S2000 were discontinued. This is a travesty.
Yup the car world. Really is going to crap fast.
The best time-era for cars in my opinion? 1990-95. Totally sweet, fresh new designs, Japanese luxury devisions kicking serious butt.... etc.
Now all the best cars are being discontinued left and right.
I cannot believe the NSX AND S2000 were discontinued. This is a travesty.
Now?
EVO VIII
WRX
STi
Mazdaspeed Protege'
SRT-4
Z06
C6
GTO - 400hp model
CTS-V
350z
G35
Mazdaspeed Miata
03-04 Cobra (cant argue with 380whp stock)
new mustang isnt that bad either
I mean seriously... there's TONS more out there for all different classes of vehicles.. i didnt even touch the german lines at all (i dont know much about them)... every one of these cars has TONS of potential; and the aftermarket for all the used cars, DSMs, SR-based vehicles, 2jz-vehicles, etc is BOOMING... I mean there's TONS of stuff out there that no one had even thought of back in 95... you have stock block 500whp AWD DSMs running around on pump gas.... i mean seriously dude come on...
Originally posted by Dynasty SC
nobody can match the RX-7's potential
oh and BTW.. type R's are hardcore... dogg them all you want, they are probably THE best grip cars ever made. they'll eat you alive on the track.
nobody can match the RX-7's potential
oh and BTW.. type R's are hardcore... dogg them all you want, they are probably THE best grip cars ever made. they'll eat you alive on the track.
That being said, its probably the best 'platform' to come out of Japan... unfortunately it weighs 2800lbs give or take... may not sound heavy; but the near identical sized S13 weighs ~2500-2600lbs and is far more abundant... give me a FD with either a N/A bridge-ported 4-rotor or a 1jz with a medium-sized 60mm single turbo along with some weight reduction throughout the chassis
As for Type-Rs being hardcore and the best grip cars out there... have you ever driven one? have you ever driven a Dodge Viper or a Z06? Are you a dorifto master that watches Initial D or plays the game in the arcade? Type-Rs arent crap on the auto-x or the roadraces... the only reason they do well in sanctioned events is because of class restrictions the other cars get... being Front wheel drive limits its capabilities immensely... not to dog this car however, it is a marvel of FF engineering... but thats where the buck stops... its still FF... and the truth is; a BONE STOCK old school Mazda Miata will walk it up and down an auto-x course (they have for YEARS)
---------------
That really sucks that Honda is getting rid of its sport(s)(y) cars... I actually liked the 04 S2k... had a 2.2L engine and starting making power much earlier in the band vs its predecessor
Last edited by Bean; 11-10-04 at 01:15 AM.