To Buy or to Lease ?...That is the question.
11-11-04, 07:49 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
To Buy or to Lease ?...That is the question.
One of the most-often questions I'm asked when recommending a new vehicle is whether to buy or to lease. New-vehicle leasing has seen explosive growth in the last several years for a number of reasons. Almost one in every three new vehicles goes out the door now under a lease contract rather than a traditional bill of sale. Some manufacturers and dealers now even have leasing programs and incentives on used vehicles as well as new ones. In my Washington, DC-Baltimore metropolitan area, ( the second-largest new car market in the country behind Southern California), leasing is basically what keeps the luxury-car market in buisness.
Leasing a new vehicle, in general, involves what amounts to a monthly rental contract between the new delivered price of the vehicle and what is called the residual value, or what the manufacturer estimates its value to be after depreciation at the end of the lease contract. This can often be a dicey guess...Nissan lost a LOT of money in the late 1990's misjuding residual values, and of course this contributed greatly to their financial woes.
Anyhow, there are two main types of leases, a closed-end or open end depending on your option to buy the car outright at the end of the lease. Some people, after the lease term is up, like their vehicle so much they buy it outright, and pay off or refinance whatever the residual value is. Most people, though, simply bring it back, turn in the key, choose another vehicle, and sign up a new lease. Many of the two-to-four year old used vehicles on dealer lots are turned-in-lessees. Here's a brief look at the advantages and disadvantages of leasing to see if it is a viable option for you:
ADVANTAGES OF LEASING: Leasing has several advantages. In many cases, it allows you to drive a more expensive vehicle for lower monthly payments than if you bought the car yourself, because you pay only for a couple years' depreciation on the car.....down to its projected residual value. An additional profit for the dealer and bank is built into the payment schedule, like with a mortgage company...some profit, of course, has to be made on the deal, just like selling a new car. For this reason, leasing is popular with people in the market for expensive luxury cars like the Lexus LS430, Mercedes S-Class, Cadillac STS, etc.... and expensive sports cars like Porsches and Corvettes. Leasing in general allows you to drive a brand-new car every 2-4 years (the typical length of lease contracts). It makes the transaction process much simpler...no fooling around with trade-ins, advertising and selling your old car, etc.... You can also put money down at the time you draw up the lease contract...the more you put down up front, the less the monthly payments will be. A new car, of course, generally means a more reliable one....something very important if you depend on your vehicle for commuting every day or drive through high-crime areas. It also means often having a vehicle with up-to-date safety features like multiple air-bags, stability control, anti-lock brakes, etc... You get a new-car warranty with the deal, but you are responsible for you own insurance.....unless you sign up for insurance that may be offered by the manufacturer. If you use your vehicle for buisness, you can, in some instances, deduct the lease payments from your taxable income....see your tax advisor and IRS for further information. And, last, at the end of the lease, basically all you do is return the car to the dealer ( in good shape, of course), hand over the key, and choose another one.
DISADVANTAGES OF LEASING: Leasing, however, is NOT for everyone. There are several disadvantages as well. First, and foremost, is the mileage limitation.....which is usually between 10,000 and 15,000 miles per year. If this mileage is exceeded there usually is a penalty involved when the car is brought back....an additional charge for each mile. So this generally cuts out leasing for those who commute long distances or drive on long vacations. Second, there is the "Wear and Tear " clause in the contract that charges a penalty for paint / trim scratches, cracks in the glass over a certain length, bald tires, torn or stained upholstry, accident damage, etc....... Although most dealerships realize that no car can be kept in absolutely mint condition if it is driven regularly and set the wear and tear terms accordingly, the contract must still be reviewed CAREFULLY....this gets some people in trouble. So...obviously, leasing is not for people who don't take care of their cars, have kids that dump ice-cream cones on the seats, spill juice cans, etc... or drive regularly on surfaces that can scratch things up, like gravel roads, or big potholes that can damage tires and wheels, or regularly drive and park in high-risk areas where the car can be damaged, even by weather-related things like storms.
Third, with leasing you will never actually own the car and will always have a monthly payment to meet....albeit usually a lower one than with an equivalent new car. Fourth, if you decide, for any reason before the contract is up that you no longer want the car or are just plain tired of it, there will often be an early-return penalty....you may have to pay an additional fee for not keeping the car for the full term. So, this is one more reason to check the contract terms carefully. Fifth, the car is usually not allowed to be modified from factory specs.....so, of course, this would rule out all you CL guys who like to lower the suspension, boost engine HP / torque, put on aftermarket wheels / tires, bolt on air dams, smoke and tint the headlights and glass, etc... Sixth, although Federal Truth-in-Leasing laws require dealerships and banks to FULLY explain all the leasing terms throughly so the customer knows just what he / she is getting into, (and most dealerships are now pretty good about this), the contract can still be tricky and have hidden clauses....so you MUST look it over carefully.
So.....in the end.......is leasing for you or not? I know that a lot of CL members have faced this question before.....and I hope this helps you all make a more informed decision.
Good Luck.
Leasing a new vehicle, in general, involves what amounts to a monthly rental contract between the new delivered price of the vehicle and what is called the residual value, or what the manufacturer estimates its value to be after depreciation at the end of the lease contract. This can often be a dicey guess...Nissan lost a LOT of money in the late 1990's misjuding residual values, and of course this contributed greatly to their financial woes.
Anyhow, there are two main types of leases, a closed-end or open end depending on your option to buy the car outright at the end of the lease. Some people, after the lease term is up, like their vehicle so much they buy it outright, and pay off or refinance whatever the residual value is. Most people, though, simply bring it back, turn in the key, choose another vehicle, and sign up a new lease. Many of the two-to-four year old used vehicles on dealer lots are turned-in-lessees. Here's a brief look at the advantages and disadvantages of leasing to see if it is a viable option for you:
ADVANTAGES OF LEASING: Leasing has several advantages. In many cases, it allows you to drive a more expensive vehicle for lower monthly payments than if you bought the car yourself, because you pay only for a couple years' depreciation on the car.....down to its projected residual value. An additional profit for the dealer and bank is built into the payment schedule, like with a mortgage company...some profit, of course, has to be made on the deal, just like selling a new car. For this reason, leasing is popular with people in the market for expensive luxury cars like the Lexus LS430, Mercedes S-Class, Cadillac STS, etc.... and expensive sports cars like Porsches and Corvettes. Leasing in general allows you to drive a brand-new car every 2-4 years (the typical length of lease contracts). It makes the transaction process much simpler...no fooling around with trade-ins, advertising and selling your old car, etc.... You can also put money down at the time you draw up the lease contract...the more you put down up front, the less the monthly payments will be. A new car, of course, generally means a more reliable one....something very important if you depend on your vehicle for commuting every day or drive through high-crime areas. It also means often having a vehicle with up-to-date safety features like multiple air-bags, stability control, anti-lock brakes, etc... You get a new-car warranty with the deal, but you are responsible for you own insurance.....unless you sign up for insurance that may be offered by the manufacturer. If you use your vehicle for buisness, you can, in some instances, deduct the lease payments from your taxable income....see your tax advisor and IRS for further information. And, last, at the end of the lease, basically all you do is return the car to the dealer ( in good shape, of course), hand over the key, and choose another one.
DISADVANTAGES OF LEASING: Leasing, however, is NOT for everyone. There are several disadvantages as well. First, and foremost, is the mileage limitation.....which is usually between 10,000 and 15,000 miles per year. If this mileage is exceeded there usually is a penalty involved when the car is brought back....an additional charge for each mile. So this generally cuts out leasing for those who commute long distances or drive on long vacations. Second, there is the "Wear and Tear " clause in the contract that charges a penalty for paint / trim scratches, cracks in the glass over a certain length, bald tires, torn or stained upholstry, accident damage, etc....... Although most dealerships realize that no car can be kept in absolutely mint condition if it is driven regularly and set the wear and tear terms accordingly, the contract must still be reviewed CAREFULLY....this gets some people in trouble. So...obviously, leasing is not for people who don't take care of their cars, have kids that dump ice-cream cones on the seats, spill juice cans, etc... or drive regularly on surfaces that can scratch things up, like gravel roads, or big potholes that can damage tires and wheels, or regularly drive and park in high-risk areas where the car can be damaged, even by weather-related things like storms.
Third, with leasing you will never actually own the car and will always have a monthly payment to meet....albeit usually a lower one than with an equivalent new car. Fourth, if you decide, for any reason before the contract is up that you no longer want the car or are just plain tired of it, there will often be an early-return penalty....you may have to pay an additional fee for not keeping the car for the full term. So, this is one more reason to check the contract terms carefully. Fifth, the car is usually not allowed to be modified from factory specs.....so, of course, this would rule out all you CL guys who like to lower the suspension, boost engine HP / torque, put on aftermarket wheels / tires, bolt on air dams, smoke and tint the headlights and glass, etc... Sixth, although Federal Truth-in-Leasing laws require dealerships and banks to FULLY explain all the leasing terms throughly so the customer knows just what he / she is getting into, (and most dealerships are now pretty good about this), the contract can still be tricky and have hidden clauses....so you MUST look it over carefully.
So.....in the end.......is leasing for you or not? I know that a lot of CL members have faced this question before.....and I hope this helps you all make a more informed decision.
Good Luck.
11-11-04, 07:54 AM
#2
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The way I see it: If you're rich and like to get a new toy on a regular basis, then 3-year leases are the way to go.
Otherwise, you're just wasting money leasing a car or making payments on it. If I were rich I would lease; since I'm not, I wouldn't "buy" anything I couldn't afford to pay cash for in full...LOL, but I guess America would still be a prime piece of undeveloped real estate if everyone thought like I do.
Otherwise, you're just wasting money leasing a car or making payments on it. If I were rich I would lease; since I'm not, I wouldn't "buy" anything I couldn't afford to pay cash for in full...LOL, but I guess America would still be a prime piece of undeveloped real estate if everyone thought like I do.
11-11-04, 10:29 AM
#3
Thank you for the write up mmarshall. My wife and I are contemplating about this right now, on the 05 GX. We're still new at this as this is our first time leasing. So far, the way we see it roughly, but nothing finalized:
We didn't do any haggling yet,
1) $1500 down, about $640/month for 39 mos, for a $45k GX with 12k / yr, %4.4
2) Tax write off for either her business or mine, not sure how much we can write off?
3) We're thinking that the depreciation might be about the same had we buy the car and sell/trade it in 3 years also
4) I believe to buy the car at the end is about $29k. What else can be negotiated when dealing with leasing? Like interest rate, buy-back value, of course the price of the car? This is all we know so far. Any further input is greatly appreciated.
We didn't do any haggling yet,
1) $1500 down, about $640/month for 39 mos, for a $45k GX with 12k / yr, %4.4
2) Tax write off for either her business or mine, not sure how much we can write off?
3) We're thinking that the depreciation might be about the same had we buy the car and sell/trade it in 3 years also
4) I believe to buy the car at the end is about $29k. What else can be negotiated when dealing with leasing? Like interest rate, buy-back value, of course the price of the car? This is all we know so far. Any further input is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by GS3Tek; 11-11-04 at 10:30 AM.
11-11-04, 11:18 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally posted by GS3Tek
Thank you for the write up mmarshall. My wife and I are contemplating about this right now, on the 05 GX. We're still new at this as this is our first time leasing. So far, the way we see it roughly, but nothing finalized:
We didn't do any haggling yet,
1) $1500 down, about $640/month for 39 mos, for a $45k GX with 12k / yr, %4.4
2) Tax write off for either her business or mine, not sure how much we can write off?
3) We're thinking that the depreciation might be about the same had we buy the car and sell/trade it in 3 years also
4) I believe to buy the car at the end is about $29k. What else can be negotiated when dealing with leasing? Like interest rate, buy-back value, of course the price of the car? This is all we know so far. Any further input is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for the write up mmarshall. My wife and I are contemplating about this right now, on the 05 GX. We're still new at this as this is our first time leasing. So far, the way we see it roughly, but nothing finalized:
We didn't do any haggling yet,
1) $1500 down, about $640/month for 39 mos, for a $45k GX with 12k / yr, %4.4
2) Tax write off for either her business or mine, not sure how much we can write off?
3) We're thinking that the depreciation might be about the same had we buy the car and sell/trade it in 3 years also
4) I believe to buy the car at the end is about $29k. What else can be negotiated when dealing with leasing? Like interest rate, buy-back value, of course the price of the car? This is all we know so far. Any further input is greatly appreciated.
In some cases, you can also negotiate at least part of the monthly payment. The monthly payment is primarily based on an estimate of the car's depreciation down to the residual value, but there is some leeway built into it depending on your (and your wife's) credit rating, what the bank (dealers are usually financed by banks) is willing to let the money go for, how much profit the dealer or bank is willing to make, how trustworthy they believe you are, and.....something I really didn't mention in my first post.....how easy the dealer feels the car will be able to re-sell ( or re-lease) when you're done with it.
As far as the tax write-off goes, that will depend on just what kind of buisness you use the car for, how much you actually use the car for that buisness, and what the IRS laws are when you go to do that particular tax return. But in general, you can deduct the lease payments for buisness-related use....though what you ultimately save on taxes you may end up paying for in insurance. Some insurance companies charge higher premiums when the car is used for buisness.
And....ultimately, remember: If the car is not actually worth as much after the lease term is up as originally projected, and the dealer or manufacturer has lost money on the deal (as Nissan did so many times during the 1990's), that is NOT your problem. MAKE SURE that no one tries to sneak in a hidden-clause in the fine print that allows the dealer, when you return the car, to charge you the difference between the projected residual and the actual market value. If you have kept YOUR terms of the deal, mileage and Wear-and-Tear-wise, then that is THEIR loss, not yours.
Consequently, if the manufacturer overestimates the car's depreciation down to residual value, and the car's market value is actually MORE than projected, the dealer does NOT have to refund you the difference. The contract is still binding, and in this case the dealer just gets a little more profit when they re-sell the car. That's just one of the chances you take in leasing, (or in any buisness deal) , that's all.
And, last, before you actually sign for a GX, take a look at the Toyota 4-Runner....especially the upper-level V8 versions. It is basically the same vehicle as the GX....minus some wood trim and sound insulation and with a little shorter warranty....for less money. Of course, one of the prime reasons FOR leasing in the first place, as I have noted , is that you sometimes get more vehicle for the same or less monthly payment....so maybe by leasing you can get a GX for the same money as buying a 4-Runner, but you can save even more by leasing a 4-Runner.
Again, good luck......... let us know how it goes.
11-11-04, 02:11 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
h
The Federal Truth-in-Leasing laws minimize the chances of that happening but it still pays to know what you are signing for. Auto selling and leasing can sometimes be a less-than-perfectly-honest buisness.
Originally posted by GS3Tek
. Seems like we'll grab our magnifying glass when we go to sign that lease
This should be a sticky b/c it will keep coming up over and over again.
. Seems like we'll grab our magnifying glass when we go to sign that lease
This should be a sticky b/c it will keep coming up over and over again.
11-11-04, 03:02 PM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
Too me, leasing is just stupid. It's like renting when you can buy for a few bucks more. You have nothing to show after all those payments.
Maybe if you are so rich you don't give a sh#t it's ok, but other than that-Leasing=
Maybe if you are so rich you don't give a sh#t it's ok, but other than that-Leasing=
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11-11-04, 03:53 PM
#8
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Ive grappled with buy or lease too. If you lease, you do have something to show for it, do you not? You have the car you are driving in....and when the lease is up, you presumably have another car to show for it. You buy a car....pay for 6 years and own it....you own the car, but what do you have to show for it? A 50k car that is 6 years old and now worth 15k. You do own it.....but you own a 6-year old car, presumably which you will one day sell and use the money to buy....a new car.
You lease....you drive a car for 3 years.....then trade it in for another....new car. No, you dont own it, but the point is at this time you have a new car and the other person has a 6 year old car.
It usually is less money down and per month to lease, and you dont hassle with selling it at the end of the lease. Simply put, most people will always have car payments......especially on a Lexus, because it is a $50k car. Not too many people put down $50k in cash. Heck, I would think most people sell the car before their loan ends anyways, then use that money to pay the loan and get something else. For some people, paying $400 a month to lease is better than paying $600 to buy.
10 years.....say you lease cars over that period.....$400 a month...you pay $48,000 in payments, but will have 3-4 new cars over that timespan.
Say you buy.......2 new cars....5 years each......pay $600 month....after first 5 years you have paid $36,000. After 5 years your car is only worth $15,000. In today's Internet era, you likely wont get $15k.....but have to sit there until you do sell it, which maybe a while, or you trade it in for even less.
You take that $15k, put it on a down payment, yet still will be making payments for the next 5 years and that new $50k GS, just like the people who are leasing it......and after that 5 years maybe you have $40k in loans for the car....so you spent $75k in 10 years on 2 cars......yet what do you have to show for it? Your new GS is now worth only $18k. So now......$75k minus that $18k that you basically put back in your pocket, you paid $57k to drive 2 new cars for 10 years, while leasers saved $10k more, drove same or newer cars, etc. Obviously, we always have to have a car, so that $18k just goes back into yet another car after that 10 years, starts the cycle all over again.
Who wins? No one, you may own equity in a car.....but so what? A car is a car.....no one really cares how you paid for it or if it is leased. Both the leasee and the buyer will still have a car to drive over that 10 years, and after that 10 years. You put that 18k into a new SC430, but the leasee is driving a SL500 for a less price. In the end, no one cares that you own $18k of that SC versus the guy who has a SL.
My point is, unless you take that $18k and put it into something like real estate, an appreciating asset, you never really see the fruits of that money in anything besides a car. Thats why I would favor buying a home over renting, but leasing a car over buying one. That being said, I wanted to lease a new CL500, but instead ended up buying. My credit was nonexistant at the time though, next time I may lease. I could be driving an SL instead of a CL right now for $200 less/month. Once I sell the car and pay the loan, the way cars depreciate, I wont have any money left, Ill break even likely with just enough money to pay the loan off. The only thing I gained out of this was credit, which was somewhat my goal I guess. Expensive cars like ours depreciate too much these days, if we were driving $10k-15k cars new, then it would be a valid point to probably just buy it, because our cars in 5 years will depreciate 2x more than the brand new $15k Pontiac or Ford, meaning the most a new $15k car can depreciate is $15k, while alot of people who paid $50k 5 years ago have a car that is worth some $30k less than when they bought it.
You lease....you drive a car for 3 years.....then trade it in for another....new car. No, you dont own it, but the point is at this time you have a new car and the other person has a 6 year old car.
It usually is less money down and per month to lease, and you dont hassle with selling it at the end of the lease. Simply put, most people will always have car payments......especially on a Lexus, because it is a $50k car. Not too many people put down $50k in cash. Heck, I would think most people sell the car before their loan ends anyways, then use that money to pay the loan and get something else. For some people, paying $400 a month to lease is better than paying $600 to buy.
10 years.....say you lease cars over that period.....$400 a month...you pay $48,000 in payments, but will have 3-4 new cars over that timespan.
Say you buy.......2 new cars....5 years each......pay $600 month....after first 5 years you have paid $36,000. After 5 years your car is only worth $15,000. In today's Internet era, you likely wont get $15k.....but have to sit there until you do sell it, which maybe a while, or you trade it in for even less.
You take that $15k, put it on a down payment, yet still will be making payments for the next 5 years and that new $50k GS, just like the people who are leasing it......and after that 5 years maybe you have $40k in loans for the car....so you spent $75k in 10 years on 2 cars......yet what do you have to show for it? Your new GS is now worth only $18k. So now......$75k minus that $18k that you basically put back in your pocket, you paid $57k to drive 2 new cars for 10 years, while leasers saved $10k more, drove same or newer cars, etc. Obviously, we always have to have a car, so that $18k just goes back into yet another car after that 10 years, starts the cycle all over again.
Who wins? No one, you may own equity in a car.....but so what? A car is a car.....no one really cares how you paid for it or if it is leased. Both the leasee and the buyer will still have a car to drive over that 10 years, and after that 10 years. You put that 18k into a new SC430, but the leasee is driving a SL500 for a less price. In the end, no one cares that you own $18k of that SC versus the guy who has a SL.
My point is, unless you take that $18k and put it into something like real estate, an appreciating asset, you never really see the fruits of that money in anything besides a car. Thats why I would favor buying a home over renting, but leasing a car over buying one. That being said, I wanted to lease a new CL500, but instead ended up buying. My credit was nonexistant at the time though, next time I may lease. I could be driving an SL instead of a CL right now for $200 less/month. Once I sell the car and pay the loan, the way cars depreciate, I wont have any money left, Ill break even likely with just enough money to pay the loan off. The only thing I gained out of this was credit, which was somewhat my goal I guess. Expensive cars like ours depreciate too much these days, if we were driving $10k-15k cars new, then it would be a valid point to probably just buy it, because our cars in 5 years will depreciate 2x more than the brand new $15k Pontiac or Ford, meaning the most a new $15k car can depreciate is $15k, while alot of people who paid $50k 5 years ago have a car that is worth some $30k less than when they bought it.
Last edited by mjr24; 11-11-04 at 10:21 PM.
11-11-04, 03:57 PM
#9
That's true that at the end of the lease, you have no car, nothing. But for tax purposes, you can write them off for business purpose. Depending on how much you can write it off, you're almost driving the vehicle at a very low cost. I think this is the main reason for leasing. When buying, you can't write anything off, only mileage. Of course if I don't have a business, it would make no sense to lease at all. However, if you want some tax deduction, you can use your line of equity to pay for the car 
Edit: mjr24. Makes a whole lot of sense to me with what you said That's a very good justification.
Edit: mjr24. Makes a whole lot of sense to me with what you said
That's a very good justification.
Last edited by GS3Tek; 11-11-04 at 04:04 PM.
11-11-04, 04:57 PM
#10
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Originally posted by GS3Tek
Of course if I don't have a business, it would make no sense to lease at all. However, if you want some tax deduction, you can use your line of equity to pay for the car
Of course if I don't have a business, it would make no sense to lease at all. However, if you want some tax deduction, you can use your line of equity to pay for the car
11-11-04, 05:53 PM
#11
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lease is for me!!! ^o^ we have a beater bought already, so no need to worry about milage at all! just the higher insurance would pose as a consideration...
mmarshall, u the king!
mmarshall, u the king!
11-11-04, 10:39 PM
#13
Lexus Test Driver
The only reasons not to lease a car is:
1) If you drive more than 15000 miles a year.
2) If you plan to keep a car for 5+ years.
If you switch cars every 3-5 years, then LEASING is better imo for these reasons:
1) No need to tie up your $$$$ in a large downpayment. ( Any $$$ u put down, u will never get back anyway.)
2) MUCH lower monthly payments.
3) If u get into an accident, u dont have to worry about trying to sell a car that has body damage, which is a big headache.
4) Don't have to worry about no warranty repairs.
5) Don't have to worry about selling your car.
I have calculated this many times and for ME leasing is cheaper and provides less things to worry about.
BTW for those people that compare leasing vs buying a car to renting vs owning a house, you have to remember your house will appreciate in value overtime, while your car will only depreciate.
For people that say with leasing u will always have car payments.........ye but if u purchase the car, usually its financed for 5 years. Only after 5 years the payments will end. I dont know too many people that will keep their car for 5+ years.
1) If you drive more than 15000 miles a year.
2) If you plan to keep a car for 5+ years.
If you switch cars every 3-5 years, then LEASING is better imo for these reasons:
1) No need to tie up your $$$$ in a large downpayment. ( Any $$$ u put down, u will never get back anyway.)
2) MUCH lower monthly payments.
3) If u get into an accident, u dont have to worry about trying to sell a car that has body damage, which is a big headache.
4) Don't have to worry about no warranty repairs.
5) Don't have to worry about selling your car.
I have calculated this many times and for ME leasing is cheaper and provides less things to worry about.
BTW for those people that compare leasing vs buying a car to renting vs owning a house, you have to remember your house will appreciate in value overtime, while your car will only depreciate.
For people that say with leasing u will always have car payments.........ye but if u purchase the car, usually its financed for 5 years. Only after 5 years the payments will end. I dont know too many people that will keep their car for 5+ years.
11-12-04, 11:03 AM
#15
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"lease the new, and buy the used"
why isn't used recommended to be leased??
when we were purchasing my gs @ longo, the sales person did ask us about leasing. and it was cheaper!! so why are u recommending not to lease an used?????
why isn't used recommended to be leased??
when we were purchasing my gs @ longo, the sales person did ask us about leasing. and it was cheaper!! so why are u recommending not to lease an used?????