Xenthar

I'm just curious to see which cars in this segment will sell the best. Which ever one sells the best is clearly what people want even if there was cost cutting involved. Only time will tell

mmarshall

EXCELLENT points, TRD.

rai, TRD has done a great job of explaining why the 3.0 GS is no problem......If I were you, I wouldn't keep harping on it.........but of course, that is your decision.

Gojirra99

I still think the E class will retain it's lead in sales in this segment after the new M35/45 & GS comes out.

jrock65

I got no problems with the 245hp 3.0L, and it'lll probably be more than adequate for most. But it's not producing any special hp or torque given its displacement. It seems to me that engine technology between Toyota/Nissan/Honda is roughly equal. The 3.5 V6's from Toyota and Nissan produce identical 280hp. The RL 3.5 V6 produces more hp, but less torque than the M35.

As far as sales, the E will continue to lead, and the 5 will continue to be in second. It'll be a dogfight for third between the M, GS, and STS. The A6 will come in 6th. The RL will come in 7th, not because it's a bad car, but the fact that there is only one loaded $50k V6 variant will hurt its sales a bit.

rogers2

True, but I disagree that this v6 is special. I think this is a marketing strategy. Lexus know this won't work for long.
FYI: I agree that most Honda’s are low in torque but they still out perform most of Lexus's cars. Everything in the Infiniti line up outperforms its Lexus counterpart. The only thing the gs300 will be able to out perform is the tsx. Maybe
They shouldn't even call the gs300 a sport sedan. Luxury sedan sounds better.
I really hope the M & GS outsell the E & 5. But most people are blinded by the name. I just think this is a marketing strategy for the gs350. At least I hope.

rai

I don't think it's remotely possible for the M or G to outsel the 5-series or the E-class.

I bet (last year) the E-class outsould all three (include RL) combined.

Of course the three new guys are better than the cars they replace, but the E and 5 both have such big sales numbers in this segment. Also they have many different variants, wagons, awd, super charged V8s, V10s, MT and SMGs. They are like swiss army knives.

mmarshall

It is amazing how the E-Class (and other M-B products) continue to sell so well even with the junk electronics and hardware that they have. I guess that a lot of people are either living in the past or are so smitten with the M-B panache and reputation for safety that they just ignore the serious flaws.

TRDFantasy

jrock65, well, true, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan *generally* have the same tech, as they all are making DOHC, VVT engines. Again, I had no modern VQ or Honda 3.0L to compare the 3GR with, so I used the next best comparatively speaking.

Toyota has been criticised for a while now, with regard to how weak their V6 engines are. Well, they've been using the MZ engines for almost 14 years now. So yes, the engines really are outdated. Thus, Toyota is introducing the new GR's. And keep in mind, the GRs are only beginning to come out, and we can already see they easily keep up with the best of the VQs, or the Honda engines. Now don't get on my case about how Nissan has a 300HP VQ, and Honda has a 300HP 3.5L V6. Sure, the Avalon is not *exactly* up to that level, but that's because it doesn't have DI, whereas the GR engines in every Lexus should have the DI applied. Plus, Toyota is not specifically in the number wars, Toyota is about providing a complete package; which is why they equally focus on fuel economy, as well as the noise and the smoothness of the engine.

I'm not saying the GR engines are revolutionary, incredible works of art, all I'm saying is they are state of the art Toyota engines, which have the flexibility of the VQ's, and Dual VVT-i as well as DI, making them potent competition. I think you'll agree with me that the GR engines will be more flexible than the Honda engines, judging already by the 3GR in the GS, 2GR in the Avalon, and the 1GR in the 4Runner/Tacoma; the 1GR is tuned for lots of torque, while the 2GR and 3GR are both tuned to a balance of TQ and HP. The GR V6 family will be Toyotas "VQ".

And Rai is right ... on that level, I must agree that the E-class totally outshines the GS. There are so many different variants and models, and options, it's almost overwhelming. Let's hope that Toyota introduces just as many models and variants in the future. Although, Toyota may be taking a Japanese approach, where they want to make each "variant" a different model, or have each model clearly defined, and serving a specific purpose. So, Toyota might be going no their own path. Who knows.

mmarshall, I agree, many people still love MB. MB is selling good still because of brand image and former reputation. MB cars are actually good quality mechanically, it's just that the electronics are bad, and the cars are much more complicated both mechanically and electronically than their Japanese competition. This applies for European cars in general. With more complexity, you are bound to have more problems.

jrock65

Yep, no doubt the GR V6 engines are at least on level with the Nissan VQ and Honda V6 engines, unlike the current V6 used in the ES and Camry.

I wouldn't necessarily say that the GR engines are more flexible than the Honda V6 though. The Honda V6 currently has 3.0, 3.2, and 3.5 iterations in the U.S. They could probably make a 4.0 out of it, but they really don't have a true truckbased vehicle like the 4Runner and Pathfinder to warrant putting the 4.0 into.

On another note, is 280hp/270torque (M35, G35 5AT)) or 298-300hp/260torque (RL, G35 6MT) the limits for naturally aspirated 3.5 V6's? It seems that at this point, whatever gain in hp must be negated by a decrease in torque.

mmarshall

Yes, M-B makes a good crash-survivable frame and has good safety features......I won't argue that.
But I have to disagree with the notion that complexity breeds unreliability. That is a decades-old belief that has no place in the modern car world. It basically went out with the arrival of the modern Japanese luxury car.
Take the Lexus LX-470.....an upscale verion of the Toyota Land Cruiser. Now......THERE is a complex vehicle if there ever was one. It even has a automated system that raises and lowers the entire vehicle depending on what you are doing....entering /exiting the vehicle, off-roading, plowing through snow, or just simple dry pavement.
And LX reliability?....according to Consumer Reports and J.D. Power, one of the most bulletproof vehicles on the market.

Same with the LS430, Q45, Acura RL, and other Japanese high-end vehicles.....they literally trounce the Germans in reliability in SPITE of being just as complex. You will find just about ANY feature in Japanese luxury cars as you do in German ones....except 500-600 HP engines and perhaps for the M-B electronic braking system, a chronic subject of customer complaints.

TRDFantasy

Sorry, I sort of misworded that. I meant in overall technological complexity, the German cars are more complex than Japanese cars. And there are a few Japanese cars that have reliability problems due to complexity (granted, these cars are old). The Nissan 300zx is a very complex car, and reliability is not that great because of it. Or similarly, the Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R, with it's complex twin turbo setup, it's ATESSA 4 wheel drive, and it's Super HICAS 4 wheel steering system. Then again, the cars are old, and the Japanese have improved.

In other words, I meant the German cars have more technological gizmos that provide no practical use (iDrive is an example). These uneeded gizmos, coupled with the complicated electrical systems of the German cars, leads to unreliability.

Now Japanese companies (Toyota in particular), they have foolproof electrical systems, which are not that complicated, and are a snap to install, from what I hear. Plus, Toyota doesn't put as many gizmos on their Lexus cars compared to the Germans, and if they do, they are useful, and usually provide a practical benefit.

German mechanics are pretty good, although they're slightly dropping in quality as well. The electrical systems of the German cars are the biggest problem, and since a modern MB these days has almost everything electronic, voice-activated, etc. this greatly affects reliability.

jrock65, the GR engines in application will stretch from 2.5L (in the IS250) all the way to the current 4Runner's 4.0L. The Honda V6 does not cover such a displacement range, is not as flexible, and in every application, the Honda V6 has lower TQ than HP. The GR engines are more flexible in this regard too, since they have flexibility to be tuned for more HP, or more TQ. So far, it seems the limit for 3.5L NA V6 engines has been reached, but Dual VVT-i combined with Direct Injection will allow Toyota to raise that limit. Keep in mind, the GR engines are just coming out, so no doubt in the coming years, the GR engines will see improvements in power. The VQ 3.5L for example did not come out sporting 300HP. Nissan has reached 300HP bu upping the redline, at the expense of a bit less TQ, and less bottom end power. 300HP is more of a marketing gimmick. Honda engines have virtually always had great HP, at the expense of TQ, and bottom end power. The RL 3.5L is no exception. The Avalon's 2GR-FE makes the same TQ as the RL, but at 300 RPM lower. With DI, the 2GR would make more HP and TQ than the 3.5L Honda.

doug_999

Whoa...
Have you driven an MB lately? The things are SOLID. Far more solid than any Lexus I have ever been in. People like that - plus, problems or not, they run forever - because they have great drivetrains. People buy them and re-buy them because of this. Oh and they are also good looking IMHO.

And complexity does breed reliability problems. The 7 series has something like 120+ motors in it - including one that adjusts the angle of the windshield wipers. This kind of complexity does not exist in any Lexus car. The LX470 has nothing compared to these other cars (note the suspension trick has been done by everyone).

Right now, the Germans are rapidly removing some of the technology they put in these cars in an effort to make them more reliable.

Here's the article that I got some of my info from
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=27846

Incendiary

Yeah, our MB's have all been solid and quite reliable. Little things here and there, maybe, but considering the way the rest of my family treats cars, I think they'd run forever and have no problems if I owned them flat out.

I understand that Lexus is supposed to have super reliability, but to me that should not be enough to sell you on a car. Have y'all seen the JD Power and CR rankings, anyway? The problems listed are like 1-2 per 100 vehicles per year. That means that despite MB and BMW's abysmal ratings, they still do quite well. Statistically, you're not likely to encounter a problem at all in your first year of ownership, and you're even more safe statistically from encountering a large problem that renders your car undriveable to the point where you need to bring it in for service lasting longer than a day.

There are reasons not to buy German, but if you look at the reliability ratings closely enough, you'll realize that the differences are not so huge that reliability should be THE key factor. That said, I still wouldn't buy a VW...

jrock65

I'm thinking that it's not that the J35 is inflexible, but that Honda with its small lineup of cars really has no reason to tweak the J35 for 2.5 and 4.0 applications. I ain't no Honda engineer, so what do I know though. So,

3.5 J35 = 300hp/260torque
3.5 GR = 280hp/260 torque, with the torque coming at 300 lower rpm than the J35
3.5 VQ = 298hp/260 torque, or 280hp/270 torque

Seems about equal IMO.

TRDFantasy

Actually, I think that the Honda Ridgeline SUT and the Honda Pilot could really use a TQ rich 4.0L J35. Not to mention the Acura MDX. Their current engines are adequate, but that's it. They don't have the TQ for serious use. Also, from what I've heard in Honda/Acura boards and forums, the J35 is not designed to be TQ rich, or have lots of bottom end grunt (like a typical Honda engine). This is according to the Honda enthusiasts on various boards.

Also, the Accord could use a torquer J35, to more compete with the Camry, Altima, and Avalon.

I don't think Honda will do a 180 on engine design, because Honda has primarily followed "bike engine" philosophy (after all, Honda started by building bikes). This is: high HP, high revving, low TQ, low bottom end power engines, with small displacement. Very similar to bike engines (it is the same philosophy). Even the Mugen Le Mans (LM) Racing V8 engine produces much more HP than TQ. Not commenting on whether it's good or bad, just demonstrating Honda's philosophy on engine design.

I honestly hope Toyota releases detailed and accurate specs on the IS350 in Geneva, instead of just "previewing" the car to people. The fact that Toyota on purpose, will show the IS at Geneva to contrast with the new 3 series; it would be beneficial for Toyota to released detailed info and specs. I am very confident (will bet) that the IS350 (2GR-FSE ) engine will surprise many people, in both power and fuel economy. I guess my words do not do much justice for the GR engines, but hopefully, Toyota will show some high powered GR engines in a timely manner, so that this debate can be put to rest .