yESman

I wish I had a link but check out the new story on Lexus in BusinessWeek. It talk about the IS250 and IS350 and mentions the ultra version of the LS at $100K and the $100K sports model.

Their biggest criticism is that Lexus must become more performance oriented like BMW since younger buyers want more than a cushy ride. Of course, it seems to me that Lexus is moving in just that direction....

mmarshall

I have to diagree with some of this. Lexus didn't get to where it is today...the top-selling luxury brand in the U.S.and one of the most successful luxury brands in the world......by selling boy-racers. The IS........perhaps the most sport-oriented Lexus model in production.......is also one of the slowest-sellers, especially the hatchback SportCross. Lexus has already upped the ante with the next IS...it will be both more powerful and more sport-oriented....and with AWD as an option.
The absolute worst thing Lexus could do, IMO, is to follow Mercedes into the AMG-ization of its cars. When Mercedes forgot what it always did best.....build safe, superbly engineered, bullet-proof, crash-resistant cars that were like tanks and started concentrating on insane amounts of horsepower and quirky electronics, their quality went right down the drain, and today they build some of the most unreliable cars on the road.
I don't want to see this happen to Lexus. Infiniti recently tried the same thing.....concentrating more on performance and less on luxury....and its quality and fit-and-finish also took a drop, but nowhere near what M-B's did.
I don't often brag on this forum........I don't believe in bragging.......but we Lexus owners are priviledged to own and drive some of the most superbly made cars in the world. I want to keep it that way.
I'm NOT saying Lexus can't put a little more power in future models......but Chris Bangle's BMW 's and newer Mercedes have both become warning flags as to what can happen when you forget what you do best and toss your heritage out the window.

Falcon LS

I couldn't agree more. But then again, when you look at the market trends nowadays, you tend to notice people caring more about power and performance figures than anything else. Whilst performance is certainly an issue, this isn't a race car to be driven by a professional race driver. I think people kind of changed the meaning of "luxury" to mean low 1/4 mile figures and faster acceleration/top speed, etc. with a hint of luxury, such as navigation, leather seats, chrome wheels and whatnot.
Whilst what's happened to MB certainly is sad, it would be a shame to see Lexus going down the same route because this is certainly not what Lexus is all about and definately not what it was intended to be. Personally, I think all the performance stuff should be focused on the IS Series to have it in the lineup, but not on the rest of the line.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

The primary thing that drew me to Lexus was its reliability. The 2nd thing is its blend of luxury and style at least in the SC and 98-05 GS and finially with the 01+ LS430. If BMW had better reliability I probably would go back to BMW. Keep in mind my family was a Lexus and Acura owner before I bought my BMW, then came back to Lexus. The only thing that is keeping me from going back to BMW or trying Mercedes is their reliability. If Lexus can build more cars that drive like bimmers but last like Toyota's then I would have no reason to leave. It sounds like they might try and do that, so as long as they keep the reliablity up I'm perfectly fine with them moving more toward sport. I'm not so much talking about insame amounts of 600HP AMG power, but more the driving feel and dynamics of the car. Offer models with more sport tuned suspensions, performance rims and tires, steeering feedback more like BMW, and offer a manual transmission option in more cars than just the IS.

lkirchner

I have 3 AMG's and I have to disagree with you on your assessment that when Mercedes started to concentrate on insane amounts of horsepower their quality went down the drain. the AMG's have been almost bulletproof for me. The AMG upgrades take a fairly normal drive train and improve the daylights out of it; hand built engine , upgraded exhaust, larger more efficient brakes, beefed up transmission, and highly improved suspension, not to mention the subtle interior upgrades. I will not disagree with you on the electronics which have been a thorn in the side of MB. However I think this is easliy explainable. All that one has to do is ask how many German computer manufacturers are there in the market today? Then ask the same question about Japanese computer manufacturers. Easy analogy.
I did have to shudder when MB solicited the help of MicroSoft to help them in solving their computer glitches. I was expecting to see 3 icons on the navigation screen: Ctrl, Alt, Delete.

Getting back to the horsepower issue. Gobs of horsepower does not neccessarily equate to reliability problems. If you drive like a fool and push the cars to their limits naturally they will break but this will happen on a normally powered car as well. If Lexus were to go more performance oriented I think their market share would increase. I would probably consider buying into that segment. But as it stands today, I would probably only purchase another Lexus for my wife who does think the AMG power is insane. Personally I love it and hope that someday I will outgrow my"Lust for Power" which I think is highly unlikely.

Gojirra99

I agree As for using resources on high powered cars, Toyota is the richest & most profitable car manufacturer in the world by a landslide over their nearest competitor, they have the resourses to get into high performance cars without sacrificing resources on their regular line-up to affect quality. It's a shame if they don't use their financial clout to develop more performance oriented cars which should help them expand their market share & be profitable as well, as more image cars can help boost the sales of their regular line-up as well.

mmarshall

Well, I'm glad that you have had good luck with yours, but Mercedes quality for the most part HAS been going down the drain lately. That is not a debatable issue...that is a fact. Granted, it is difficult to prove that the CAUSE of the breakdown in quality is horsepower-related....several recent studies have shown that European cars have electrical problems largely due to the design of their connectors and the difficulty of installing them and hooking them up correctly at the factory. Crappy electronics, as I pointed out in my first post, has undoubtedly played a part. But it is also a fact that the quality of many M-B products has gone downhill at the time that HP went way up. You don't have to just take my word for it. Check some other sources for yourself.
In fact, much had been written and posted right here at Cl about M-B's quality drop. If you still disagree, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Vegassc400

AMG's are reliable but the overall line is pretty dismal when it comes to reliability.

Gojirra99

It's the electronics on the MB cars that causes most of their reliability problems, AMG or not.

mmarshall

Lexus, though it has had success with cars like the GS 300 / 330 and 430, primarily got to where it is today by building no-compromise luxury cars and SUV's like the ES 300 /330, LS430 and RX330...the perennial top-sellers. All I'm saying is that while it is fine to offer a car like the IS for the sport-sedan crowd ( I own an IS myself) when you get away from what you do best the stage is set for problems. Like it or not, the IS simply has not sold that well. Cadillac went that route.....concentrating on sport sedans rather than luxury cars, and while it did attract some new customers, it alienated many others...their traditional ones. it is unclear, though, whether the long-term quality of new Cadillacs is any better than before...which was well-below average.
I personally don't care how much or how little power Lexus puts in their cars...I just want to see the quality level stay where it is....THAT is the most important thing, IMO.

You say that it is a shame that Lexus doesn't use their financial resources to develop more powerful and performance-oriented cars.....perhaps they are not doing so for a reason.
...............and yet they ARE to some extent...look at the next IS, for a good example....the IS350 will supposedly have 300-plus HP.

Gojirra99

The reason being overly conservative, as they're always reputed to be.

lkirchner

I have owned Mercedes continuously since 1968 and I will be the first to admit that the quality has dropped so we are not disagreeing. I am attaching a list of my irrational purchasing of MB"s.
The difference here is that I am reflecting back on 37 years and at one time they were truly tanks, that were being compared to what? I will ,from personal experience, have to say that after the W126 a 1991 560 SEL ,in my case, the quality did fall off. The 126 had a manually adjustable driver's side mirror not electric (why a motor when you could move your hand 6" and adjust it). Then they started with electrical adjustments of almost everything and added the feature THAT NO CAR COULD BE WITHOUT---cup holders.

The electronics are the gremlins not the HP. My 450 SEL 6.9 had horsepower that was almost unheard of in its time and was a truly reliable car.

Mercedes That I Have Owned ( Not in order of purchase)

Family Model Year

W198 300 SL Gullwing 1956
W188 300 SC Roadster 1957
W188 300 SL Roadster 1962
W115 220 1968
W111 280SE 3.5 Coupe 1971
W113 280 SL 1971
W115 220 D 1972
W108 300 SEL 4.5 1973
W116 450 SEL 6.9 1977
W124 300 CE 1988
W126 560 SEL 1991
W201 190 E 2.6 1992
W210 E320 1996
W210 E430 1998
W208 CLK 55 2002
W220 S55 2003
W215 CL 55 2003
W209 CLK 500 2004
R230 SL 55 2005

mmarshall

Guess you just missed getting a four-rotor C-111in 1970? ) That was an awsome car for its time.
Yes, M-B's were like tanks until the 1990's. It's interesting that their downfall started after Lexus and Infiniti came along in 1990 and they had Japanese competition.
I wouldn't necesarily say that your purchases were irrational...if you can afford it and enjoy the cars that much, go for it. If you have more than you need to live on, are generous in giving to charity, pay your taxes, and STILL have money left over....hey, you can't take it with you...might as well enjoy it while you can
When I bought my IS300, I didn't HAVE to have a car like that......I could have bought a Hyundai Accent....but I liked the car and could afford it.

lkirchner

I have had a very successful career and am glad to say that I did it the hard way; I worked for it. As you said you can't take it with you, so my new goal is to vigorously spend my children's inheritance.

LexFather

You can believe that markeing mumbo jumbo "Standard of the world" stuff as Caddy makes the best American cars and has revitalized their lineup but they are FAR from the standard of the world. True luxury sales? Please, Caddy's are overpriced, period. Lets not talk REBATES, something Caddy has to offer, something Benz, BMW, Lexus does not. So They may LIST the price at one thing but selling for much less. Caddy=Escalade to the minds of most people today, which is sad.


WHOA!! That is an incredible list.