BMW: Lexus is not in big league yet
03-09-05, 08:09 PM
#17
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I'd like to see what kind of excuses BMW will come up with once the L-Finesse strategy is in full swing. Also, if Lexus does get the performance arm going ... well ... say goodbye BMW ... hehehe 
. In Europe, Lexus is not a player. Globally though, Lexus is definitely a player. I won't get into the quality issues, since it's obvious Lexus wins it. And when will BMW get it through thier heads: Lexus IS NOT ... and DOES NOT want to be LIKE BMW. Lexus is Lexus .... they are walking along their own path .... Lexus has gone back to it's roots .... you can clearly see that great Japanese hard work and enthusiasm seen in the designs of the GS, and the new IS. Lexus is becoming focused once again, just like they did back in 1989 with the legendary Mr Suzuki, and his breathtaking LS. Lexus wants to minimize all negative aspects of driving, while maximizing the fun aspect. To sum it up, Lexus continually strives for the impossible. Lexus wants to push it's quality EVEN higher. And for the first time in Lexus history, Lexus is trying to create a unique design and style ... that each Lexus will have and be known for. Lexus is putting focus into performance and design. And those have been the only real flaws that Lexus has had.
If I were BMW, I would be talking Lexus VERY seriously. Especially if the new LS is as big a surprise as the first one was.
. In Europe, Lexus is not a player. Globally though, Lexus is definitely a player. I won't get into the quality issues, since it's obvious Lexus wins it. And when will BMW get it through thier heads: Lexus IS NOT ... and DOES NOT want to be LIKE BMW. Lexus is Lexus .... they are walking along their own path .... Lexus has gone back to it's roots .... you can clearly see that great Japanese hard work and enthusiasm seen in the designs of the GS, and the new IS. Lexus is becoming focused once again, just like they did back in 1989 with the legendary Mr Suzuki, and his breathtaking LS. Lexus wants to minimize all negative aspects of driving, while maximizing the fun aspect. To sum it up, Lexus continually strives for the impossible. Lexus wants to push it's quality EVEN higher. And for the first time in Lexus history, Lexus is trying to create a unique design and style ... that each Lexus will have and be known for. Lexus is putting focus into performance and design. And those have been the only real flaws that Lexus has had.If I were BMW, I would be talking Lexus VERY seriously. Especially if the new LS is as big a surprise as the first one was.
03-09-05, 09:14 PM
#18
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hey dude,
you guys should show some mercy to those european. they didn't have that much chance to go lexus in the last 20 years. poor guys. if lexus were as available in europe as in the US/HK, the european wouldn't need to go to the factory for repairing so often and Bxx might have closed down already by now.
i have a lexus. i love it
you guys should show some mercy to those european. they didn't have that much chance to go lexus in the last 20 years. poor guys. if lexus were as available in europe as in the US/HK, the european wouldn't need to go to the factory for repairing so often and Bxx might have closed down already by now.
i have a lexus. i love it
03-09-05, 09:19 PM
#19
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Lexus is unique in the industry ... as it follows a very traditional Japanese philosophy (Which Nissan has all but abandoned, and Honda is not as serious with). Lexus is trying to not only increase the qualities that it's known for (quality, quiet, reliability, comfortable, smooth) but at the same time, make it's cars known for performance and styling. Lexus is trying to improve on everything, which no other manufacturer IMHO is putting as much effort into. Lexus is also unique with it's upcoming performance hybrid cars.
I think that, right now, with all the upcoming changes and redesigns to the Lexus line-up, you can really start to appreciate and get a feel for that "passionate pursuit of perfection". I think the L-Finesse design theme adds the passion to the pursuit of perfection that Lexus has strived for since the beginning. I am glad that all future Lexus cars will be Lexus from the ground up, not Toyotas. Lexus is truly becoming a world-class luxury marque.
I think that, right now, with all the upcoming changes and redesigns to the Lexus line-up, you can really start to appreciate and get a feel for that "passionate pursuit of perfection". I think the L-Finesse design theme adds the passion to the pursuit of perfection that Lexus has strived for since the beginning. I am glad that all future Lexus cars will be Lexus from the ground up, not Toyotas. Lexus is truly becoming a world-class luxury marque.
03-10-05, 03:38 AM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
What is not being brought out here is the fact that BMW's and M-B's popularity in Germany is at least partly due to the extreme potectionism and tariffs that European governments erect to protect their domestic industries. That is one of the reasons why so many shoddily and poorly-made cars are widespread in Europe that would never be tolerated here in the U.S......cars like Renault, Fiat, Lancia, etc.....
If many Europeans had a REAL choice in the matter, they would be driving Japanese-nameplate models (like Lexus), but unfortunately their own governments make them difficult to get.
If many Europeans had a REAL choice in the matter, they would be driving Japanese-nameplate models (like Lexus), but unfortunately their own governments make them difficult to get.
03-10-05, 06:30 AM
#21
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Look, what he said is factually correct. Currently, Lexus doesn't have NEARLY the cache of BMW and MB as a GLOBAL brand. That may and probably will change in the future, but that is still how it stands now.
03-10-05, 07:18 AM
#22
Racer
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
http://europe.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=55582
BMW: Lexus is not in big league yet
Toyota premium brand begins push in Europe
By Douglas A. Bolduc
Automotive News Europe / March 07, 2005
Toyota's Lexus brand is not yet a global player as a luxury marque, says German rival BMW.
"Toyota has lots of cash, but we are still waiting to welcome them in the premier league," said Stefan Krause, BMW board member in charge of finance.
BMW rivals such as Lexus, Saab, Infiniti and Jaguar are successful in one or possibly two key markets, but not globally.
Krause said only two premium brands can call themselves global: BMW and Mercedes-Benz. He pointedly ignored Volkswagen's Audi brand.
Stuart McCullough, Lexus Europe director, said: "We have a lot of work to do in Europe. But I hope people are starting to see where we are headed from our products and stand at the show."
As part of its ambition to catch BMW, Lexus aims to boost its sales in Europe, helped by its new IS lower-premium sedan, which debuted here with Lexus' first diesel engine.
The IS will go on sale in Europe with a new 2.5-liter, V-6 gasoline engine by the end of the year. A diesel version with a 175hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder unit will follow early next year.
No build-to-order
Lexus aims to sell 65,000 cars in Europe by 2010. McCullough thinks the brand can reach that goal because of improvements to its powertrain options.
Besides offering diesel variants, Lexus plans to offer gasoline-electric powertrains in most of its models starting with the RX 400h, the hybrid version of its SUV, which goes on sale in Europe in June.
BMW's Krause said he will consider Lexus a true global rival when it has:
Designs that appeal worldwide
A consistent brand image in markets around the globe
A factory in Europe that can provide tailor-made build-to-order cars, which European premium customers demand.
Said McCullough: "I don't think build-to-order is the mark of a premium brand. We think there is room for us on the global stage.
BMW: Lexus is not in big league yet
Toyota premium brand begins push in Europe
By Douglas A. Bolduc
Automotive News Europe / March 07, 2005
Toyota's Lexus brand is not yet a global player as a luxury marque, says German rival BMW.
"Toyota has lots of cash, but we are still waiting to welcome them in the premier league," said Stefan Krause, BMW board member in charge of finance.
BMW rivals such as Lexus, Saab, Infiniti and Jaguar are successful in one or possibly two key markets, but not globally.
Krause said only two premium brands can call themselves global: BMW and Mercedes-Benz. He pointedly ignored Volkswagen's Audi brand.
Stuart McCullough, Lexus Europe director, said: "We have a lot of work to do in Europe. But I hope people are starting to see where we are headed from our products and stand at the show."
As part of its ambition to catch BMW, Lexus aims to boost its sales in Europe, helped by its new IS lower-premium sedan, which debuted here with Lexus' first diesel engine.
The IS will go on sale in Europe with a new 2.5-liter, V-6 gasoline engine by the end of the year. A diesel version with a 175hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder unit will follow early next year.
No build-to-order
Lexus aims to sell 65,000 cars in Europe by 2010. McCullough thinks the brand can reach that goal because of improvements to its powertrain options.
Besides offering diesel variants, Lexus plans to offer gasoline-electric powertrains in most of its models starting with the RX 400h, the hybrid version of its SUV, which goes on sale in Europe in June.
BMW's Krause said he will consider Lexus a true global rival when it has:
Designs that appeal worldwide
A consistent brand image in markets around the globe
A factory in Europe that can provide tailor-made build-to-order cars, which European premium customers demand.
Said McCullough: "I don't think build-to-order is the mark of a premium brand. We think there is room for us on the global stage.
One day this guy is going to wake up and notices little Toyota/Infiniti/ and Hondas running around.
03-10-05, 07:25 AM
#23
Pole Position
For the 1990 model year, Lexus turned BMW & Mercedes Benz on it's ear in North America bigtime! The fact BMW even issued a statement like that tells me they are nervous about the 'european invasion' of Lexus! 
I'm glad they welcome the 'challenge'........because if one compares how long Lexus has been on the market vs. BMW or Mercedes they have alot to worry about. Since 1990, how often has BMW & Mercedes been at the number 1 slot in customer satisfaction & qualit? How many has Lexus won? I rest my case. 
I'm glad they welcome the 'challenge'........because if one compares how long Lexus has been on the market vs. BMW or Mercedes they have alot to worry about. Since 1990, how often has BMW & Mercedes been at the number 1 slot in customer satisfaction & qualit? How many has Lexus won? I rest my case.
03-10-05, 07:57 AM
#24
Super Moderator
I would like to add that, globally, traditional luxury car companies like BMW & Benz has little to worry about in terms of Lexus cars catching up with them in sales figures. At least half of their sales in Europe, & probably some other places as well are cars that are stripped down, low powered/diesel versions of those available here, which are no better or worse in features & contents than the comparable Toyota's, Honda's & Nissans.
Especially that BMW(& MB) has been going further & further down market with some of their newer models like 1 series or the future van, or like the C coupe or A class MB's etc. But they are still counted as MB's & BMW's nonetheless, whereas comparable vehicles will still be counted as a Toyota's, Nissans etc. Because Toyota cars are split into two different brands, it's not simple to find a fair & legitimate way to compare their market dominance on a global scale.
We do know that Toyota is the second biggest car seller in the world, & on paper, have the financial resources to swallow whole both MB & BMW together.
What I do agree though is that in the higher end, Lexus has to offer more variety in models, their line-up is not as complete as BMW & especially MB, & in that sense is not in the same league, they still have some catching up to do. That's where they are heading now, so give them some time, they've only existed for 15 years.
Especially that BMW(& MB) has been going further & further down market with some of their newer models like 1 series or the future van, or like the C coupe or A class MB's etc. But they are still counted as MB's & BMW's nonetheless, whereas comparable vehicles will still be counted as a Toyota's, Nissans etc. Because Toyota cars are split into two different brands, it's not simple to find a fair & legitimate way to compare their market dominance on a global scale.
We do know that Toyota is the second biggest car seller in the world, & on paper, have the financial resources to swallow whole both MB & BMW together.
What I do agree though is that in the higher end, Lexus has to offer more variety in models, their line-up is not as complete as BMW & especially MB, & in that sense is not in the same league, they still have some catching up to do. That's where they are heading now, so give them some time, they've only existed for 15 years.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-10-05 at 08:04 AM.
03-10-05, 09:11 AM
#25
Moderator
I would like to think that Lexus is beyond the big leagues. Now we are starting to see a whole new line of Lexus models, luxury hybrids, diesels and performance cars as well. Lexus is the only luxury brand with 3 SUV's (RX, GX and LX). Looking at the big picture Toyota which is the ultimate parent of Lexus is starting to cover all markets. We have the affordable and simple Scion. Toyota has models for every level from entry to almost luxury (Avalon), don't forget the truck line and 5 SUV's for every level as well. Mercedes is trying to follow Toyota by purchasing the Chyrsler unit to market to the non-luxury market. They still have a ways to go. BMW does not market to the non-luxury market. BMW makes great performance cars and I'm sure that's all they want to do and that's fine. As Flipside 909 mentioned I also like cars that are very reliable and need just the minimum preventative mantenance. I want my car to work on time every time all the time and it has. I have over 223K miles on my 1996 ES 300 and I am very confident I can go another 223k miles.
03-10-05, 09:19 AM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
I highly doubt you will see Lexus do build to Order.
That is part of what makes those German cars so pricey.
I cannot see them changing what works.
They have a legendary system for manufacturing, and I am sure they are going to stick with it.
That is part of what makes those German cars so pricey.
I cannot see them changing what works.
They have a legendary system for manufacturing, and I am sure they are going to stick with it.
03-10-05, 09:50 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by jpa2400
I highly doubt you will see Lexus do build to Order.
That is part of what makes those German cars so pricey.
I cannot see them changing what works.
They have a legendary system for manufacturing, and I am sure they are going to stick with it.
That is part of what makes those German cars so pricey.
I cannot see them changing what works.
They have a legendary system for manufacturing, and I am sure they are going to stick with it.
03-10-05, 10:07 AM
#28
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
I can definitely see Lexus doing build to order for a "Super LS" ... if it ever gets made.
Then they are going against their business model and everything that is making them. They, as of right now, have one of the most streamlined and proven production systems in the world.
03-10-05, 10:36 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by jpa2400
Then they are going against their business model and everything that is making them. They, as of right now, have one of the most streamlined and proven production systems in the world.
But what is funny, as some have pointed out, BMW is more downmarket than Lexus with some of their offerings.
They offered the hatchback here and that failed. They offered 4 cylinder BMWs (still do). They now offer the 1 series which may come here, a 4 door hatchback. with an I-4 (but RWD). The X3 is the only product helping sales and that is a very subpar SUV for those that have been near one.
03-10-05, 10:44 AM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
That is a good point. The VW Phaeton, they invested and had to build this incredible new factory to build it and they made it where customers can custom build their car and look at their car being built etc. This may sound cool but probably only a few hundred do it and it does jack up the price.
But what is funny, as some have pointed out, BMW is more downmarket than Lexus with some of their offerings. They offered the hatchback here and that failed. They offered 4 cylinder BMWs (still do). They now offer the 1 series which may come here, a 4 door hatchback. with an I-4 (but RWD). The X3 is the only product helping sales and that is a very subpar SUV for those that have been near one.
But what is funny, as some have pointed out, BMW is more downmarket than Lexus with some of their offerings.
They offered the hatchback here and that failed. They offered 4 cylinder BMWs (still do). They now offer the 1 series which may come here, a 4 door hatchback. with an I-4 (but RWD). The X3 is the only product helping sales and that is a very subpar SUV for those that have been near one.Read up on Toyota Production Systems some time.
This is why I say I doubt they will ever really do build to order.
This system is why they have more cash on hand then the big 3. It’s also why their quality is so top notch.
Part of TPS, using Lean manufacturing principles is setup time. They get the cars set, and run big batches. More setup’s and tooling changes, the more room for error etc etc etc…
Just .00001 of what TPS is, but it is what makes Toyota\Lexus so damn strong.
Build to order not only will raise the prices, but also bring down quality (the last thing you want in a 100k supercar)
If anything they will package it like they do the LS now. With one model being loaded. Want it? Take it or leave it. Choice in 1 tone less of brown isn’t going to stop someone from buying the car.