BrickHead

texan629, you just don't know when to stop do you.. his statement was not racist like yours. Moderator, please don't let this troll ruin the quality of this great forum.

BrickHead

Nobody has used any racist term to describe any German cars the way you have to Japanese cars. Your other posts are full of non-constructive, offensive, anti-Lexus, hateful, and RACIST comments. You refered to Lexus parts as 'jap parts'. Look here https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=149974. Post your RACIST and HATEFUL comments at a KKK or **** site, not here. It's unfortunate we have to put up with such a disturbing display of racial intolerance and hate here at CL.

XeroK00L

texan629, there's a BIG difference between negativity that's directed at one single person and negativity towards an entire race or ethnicity as a whole. Your comment obviously belongs to the latter, or what the rest of world calls racism, whereas 1Sick's comment was solely aimed at Mr. Krause, whose arrogant remarks left a lot to be desired.

Please stop your nonsense or go elsewhere. The CL can do a lot better without the likes of your kind.

LexFather

I didn't say it
Both comments edited so we can keep this thing going.

doug_999

from Autoweek
"The all-tech, all-the-time BMW 5 Series was the benchmark in development of the new GS"

then the chief engineer goes on to say "Our goal was to create something different, and in its difference, something superior in overall performance"

If you ask me, they are still chasing BMW.

TRDFantasy

The 5 Series was the benchmark, handling-wise. For performance, Lexus already has that covered. The GS 430 is no slouch, and the coming 450H and 460 will both beat any 5 Series save an M5.

I'd like to point out the only reason the 5 Series has such great handling is that it's front/rear weight ratio is a perfect 50/50. The GS 300’s weight is distributed 53/47 front/rear, the 430’s 54/46. If the 430, hypothetically speaking had 50/50 weight distribution, it would have amazing handling I predict. It's not that Toyota can't do it ... it's just they haven't.

Everything else was "different", in terms of having a Japanese philosophy and feel to it. People always complain that "lexus is not as good as BMW ... Lexus is always chasing BMW".

I guess it's never occured to people that Lexus already has it's OWN identity. A very Japanese identity. The fact that Lexus cars are silent, understated, simple yet elegant, and extremely peaceful inside. This is the Lexus identity. With L-Finesse, they are simply making Lexus stand out more from Toyota and other manufacturers ... to give the cars a unique styling identity .... as well as focusing more on performance. Everything else that Lexus always stood for will remain.

doug_999

Well to me, handling is part of performance. That said, the 2006 5-series will have a 4.8L engine - the 450H and 460 are almost two years away. So no, I don't think the 450H and 460 will beat any 5-series and no, the 430 will not compete, performance or handling wise with the 2006 550.

Why? You say that they can do it, but why haven't they?

But they admit that the benchmark car is the 5-series? Why are they not setting their own benchmark?

My personal opinion is that they know people prefer the ride/handling/performance of a BMW - I know I do. The fact is BMW easily outsells Lexus when it comes to cars. It is only the fact that 55-60% of Lexus sales are trucks (and yes the RX330 is counted as a truck per Lexus) that Lexus even outsells BMW.

flipside909

I said it. Well how about we just edit out the culprit all together. We already know who the instigator troll is. It's obvious the person who made those comments are pretty ignorant and it's obvious the instigator has no logic or sees the point. We're all educated adults here...well for the exception of one certain individual that others have already pointed out.

My stance on Krause's comment stands. That's pretty naive of him to say such a thing, but any top dog of any company that feels another company poses a pure thread would resort to such a comment. Afterall, they were the ones that laughed at Toyota for creating Lexus. Now they're resorting to smack talk because they're nervously having to watch their backs. I'm sure it makes him feel better to belittle another company since that's his only line of defense. We know who's the poor sport/anti-diplomant in the game, Krause just discredited his image as a supposed leader and revolutionary (not that he was in the first place).

TRDFantasy

Right now, the 430 competes well with the 5. And don't count out the 450H and 460 just yet. The 5 weighs a bit more than the GS .... for all intents and purposes ... I think both the BMW and Lexus 6 speeds are equal. It remains to be seen how fast the 4.8L 5 will be ... I predict the GS 460 will be tied in speed.



Myabe it's not thier intention to do it with the GS. Maybe they are saving it for the GT line. Maybe VDIM makes up for the uneven weight distribution. Nobody can really anser that, except Toyota execs.

BMW has much more history than Lexus. BMW has always been about sport/performance first, and luxury second. Lexus is mostly about luxury first, and sport second. Both companies have different philosophies. The new GS is a balance of sport and luxury, while the new 5 is still skewed towards sport. It's true BMW sells more cars, and this has a lot to do with brand image. Even though BMW has IDrive, and all sorts of electrical problems, people still buy them because of image, and reputation. Lexus has less history, thus less brand image, and Lexus relies on word of mouth, and thier reputation for quality to sell cars. GM sells more than Toyota worldwide right now ... oh no ... stop the presses ... it must mean GM makes better cars?

doug_999

Ya know, reliability is a funny thing. Cars are so reliable these days that when one has to go into the shop twice a year, it is way below normal. I've got lots of friends with BMWs and none seem to have any troubles. For my experience, my 5 was perfect and my GS is not. Even so, for me, I want the sport part back in my life so the new 5, even though its interior does not compare to the new GS, will probably have a better chance of ending up in my garage next March. But hey, that's me.

Oh and GM's sales numbers are decreasing - BMWs are not. In case you haven't looked they are almost dead even with Lexus this year. The new GS could not have come soon enough.

Gojirra99

Ironically, what's help propping Bimmer sales recently is the introduction of the mighty X3 , that's not a car isn't it ?

It's quite simple to figure out how dramatically different the "car"sales figures would look if bimmer were to drop all the convertibles & the coupe variations as well as engine choices to make it look like the much more limited "car " model lineup as Lexus right now. Of couse you would say Lexus have more SUV's, but in total BMW offer significantly more models/variations than Lexus(mainly due to the short existence of the Lexus brand) & still didn't manage to do better. Looks like Lexus will put more emphasis to cars from now anyways.

Lexus also has the disadvantage of being split into 2 brands & some of it's higher end Toyota cars which is by any measure luxury cars in content/ features/powertrain compared with some models of other luxury brands, but doesn't count towards Lexus sales.(Well-equipped Sienna, & the Avalon for example) The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how you define cars or trucks, as they all count, as long as it sells & make profits which is still the primary goal of a company.

I do agree BMW is more fun to drive than most Lexus ( my gf had a 330 & I do love their cars except for their Banglised designs) but that's only one of many aspects of car ownership experience.

doug_999

Yes, BMW sales are helped by the X3 just as Lexus sales are helped by the GX470. People are buying trucks and yes, BMW has more model variations - now why can't we have that with Lexus?

With regards to 2 brands/higher end cars, we could add the Mini sales in and then BMW does sell more than Lexus

Gojirra99

I've answered that already in my previous post didn't I ? & they are introducing more variations, like they're starting with the new IS, but it would take years more for them to make their "car" line-up looking close to BMW, & they shouldn't rush it either.

It doesn't take a person with an IQ of over 50 to figure out how badly Toyota will beat BMW in sales if Toyota+Lexus sales is compared to BMW+mini.(they sell more than anyone else other than GM right ? & BMW groupe isn't close). Even if they add just "some" of it's higher end luxurious Toyota models to the Lexus sales figues, it will still beat BMW+Mini. Mini is not a luxury car anyway just a fun little sports car(I like it too BTW), certainly not as luxurious as a Toyota avalon or a Toyota Sienna.

I'm not saying selling more = preferable BTW, that's an individual's choice but I just take issue with your assertion that BMW is more fun to drive & is reflected in their "car" sales figures.

doug_999

Well to be honest, you said that there were some Toyota's that really should be considered Lexus'. I know there are plenty of people on this board that would take serious issue with that comment, no matter how nice the new Avalon is (I happen to agree with you BTW). I was however simply pointing out that if you wanted to start picking at the Toyota line to help out with Lexus sales, we could do the same with Mini/BMW.

Now re-read my post carefully - I state
"My personal opinion is that they know people prefer the ride/handling/performance of a BMW - I know I do"
I make that very clear that it is my personal opinion. I could try to back it up with things like "Why did they add a sports package to the LS430?" - or "Did you notice that Lexus car sales have been decreasing and not increasing? Do you think that people are looking for something more out of their cars?" But these would be just my theories and we could do a whole thread on them. Like I said, I want some sport back in my life - but that's me.

Gojirra99

The above is the portion of your post that I am addressing & taken into context as a whole, not just the first sentence
I think you miss my point a little here. My point is NOT that some Toyota's should really be considered a Lexus, but that some Toyota's have the powertrain/features/contents/price that are in all ways equal or superior to some models in other luxury brands(other than Lexus), so they are disadvantaged that they are not counted as a Lexus sales, whereas the comparable model in the other luxury brands will still be counted towards their sales. So there's not a simple, fair, & legitimate way to compare their sales to a traditional luxury brand.


Anyway I think we've stated our opinions already & tried to back it up with some facts. Afterall, we don't base our next brand of cars to buy based on whether it's the sales leader or how well it sell do we ? I don't really have more to add.