doug_999

and here I thought you had nothing more to add.... but no you go and edit the post

I don't understand your point above. Are you saying that Toyota makes some cars that should be considered luxury cars and thus people bought them instead of a Lexus and thus Lexus sales should be higher?

xioix

the crowns models in japan out sell the lexus equivalents

Gojirra99

Oh yes, I pressed the post buttom before I thought of something in your post I want to clarify in my reponse


Yes, that would be the case when that happens, but my main point is not that whether Lexus sales should be higher or not, I'm just objecting to the fact that you keep saying how BMW can sell more "cars" than Lexus, totally disregarding that they are offering a much more limited line-up in the Lexus brand than bmw right now, as if they can only sell "trucks" but not "cars" I dunno but it does sounds like a put-down to me although I couldn't see why there's anything wrong with that. Toyota sells lots of "cars" too. You see Lexus cannot go too further down market with their models unlike tradition luxury brands like BMW & MB.. Cars like the Mercedes C coupe, A & B class, BMW 1 series etc.If it was Toyota that makes those exact same cars, they won't even make it into the Lexus line-up, they will be sold as Toyota's instead. That's why I say you cannot fairly compare them the way you were doing.

Faraaz23

Can someone explain to me the difference between built-to-order and the way Toyo/Lex currently does things. I always though that Lexus, like MB and BMW, have certain stand alone options, and packages. You can opt to either get the packages or the stand alone options as you like, and if none of the dealers have it in your area, you can factory order it choosing the list of avaiable options/color combos. But I guess MB and BMW can be even more specialized? Can you get things that aren't on the normal list of options on those cars?

doug_999

No
If you want a custom order from Toyota/Lexus, it is a 3-4 month wait (you are quoted that, it could be less). The dealer will do everything in their power to talk you out of it, instead trying to make you take one of their "packaged" cars.

BMW/MB will custom make any car you want - with any options you want. Don't want a sunroof on that 5-series? Ok, it will be 3-4 weeks (provided they have a delivery slot). Want a totally customized X5? That will be 10 days. You want that color that was available last year but not this year? No problem, but it will be an extra $2K. The array of options are stunning.

doug_999

As far as I know, the low end BMW is a 325 right now. It is pretty hard to find those babies for less than $30K. Right now an IS can be had for that or less. So from a low end perspective, they seem about matched - BMW only goes up from there. All the way to $120K+. So if anything, your argument should be that BMW makes higher end cars than Lexus no?

Gojirra99

Yes they do & I acknowledged that in one of my early posts in this thread already, you don't even remember that ? but those high end cars are already counted , they are very low volume anyway.Lexus is just moving towards the higher end now, the new LS & LS hybrid is going to cost more than the current LS.

Most of the cars BMW sells are at the very low end anyway.
If you remember a thread posted a little while ago, BMW is only 5th in selling cars above $42k(the "real" luxury car price point by automotivenews's definition) : https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...light=Cadillac Cadillac is first & Lexus is third, but that's really beside the point.
I don't think one should try to disparage a brand based on whether they sell more SUV's or "cars"or whether they sell more at the higher or lower end, that's the main point I'm disputing with you , as each brand has their own different focuses & strengths and weaknesses.

xioix

in the US its the 325, but in europe its a 4 cylinder diesel that competes with cars like the toyota avenis

doug_999

uh yea and we are (and have been) talking US sales here... but thanks for your input

Ok,
First you said
"You see Lexus cannot go too further down market with their models unlike tradition luxury brands like BMW & MB.. Cars like the Mercedes C coupe, A & B class, BMW 1 series etc.If it was Toyota that makes those exact same cars, they won't even make it into the Lexus line-up, they will be sold as Toyota's instead. "

which if I'm reading it correctly, Lexus can not go down market like BMW can - even though BMW outsells it already in cars and BMW does not sell the 1 series yet, nor does MB sell the A&B class here (we are talking US sales right?).

now you say that most of the cars that BMW sells are low end ones anyway and since the Lexus cars (and trucks) cost more.......

??????

Maybe we should just go back to the "I don't really have more to add" part of your post and we will just let this one die.

Gojirra99

We are not talking about just America here when I am referring to the 1 series it should be obvious to everybody who reads it & I don't have to, regardless of what has been discussed before. Based on the original post of this thread, we should not be limited to talking about the U.S. anyway.

If you want to talk just about USA that's fine too.What I'm inferring is that if & when BMW introduce the 1 series to the USA to further widen their car model line offerings here, & thus sell even more cars, & if you come here to brag how many "cars" BMW are selling, it's not going to fly because BMW would just be propping up their sales with an even more low end car which will have no Lexus equivalent, but a Toyota equivalent. I really have no problem with that as there's nothing wrong with it if BMW wants to do that, they are just trying to do more business right? For the same reason, there's nothing wrong with Lexus focusing more on SUV's than cars in recent years since it's a good business move which helps them become the #1 selling luxury brand for the last 5 years here. But you always seems to be infering that Lexus is somehow "less" when they sell more SUV's than cars when you say :

quote "The fact is BMW easily outsells Lexus when it comes to cars. It is only the fact that 55-60% of Lexus sales are trucks (and yes the RX330 is counted as a truck per Lexus) that Lexus even outsells BMW."

& I've been here long enough to know that you've said similar stuff many times before even before this thread. Maybe it's you who should consider putting the "selling more SUV's than cars" thing to rest as it's getting old & quite meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If selling SUV's is such a bad thing, how come BMW (&many others) are following Lexus' footsteps with the X5 & X3 after Lexus invented the car-based SUV market with the RX ?

Lexus will be widening their "car " models offerings from now on anyway if that makes you happier(or not ?).

GRAND_LS 4

iTrader: (2)

Didnt expect anythign less from the BMW, now you know why BMW owners are all stuck ups.

Hameed

Hey AmethySC, I have also found this comment of Doug's

.

I have to agree with AmethySC that I find that comment old and tiring too. Keep in mind that Lexus as a brand has been around for less than 15 years. BMW has been around for how long? 100 years? Imagine what Lexus will be like in another 10 years (much less 100 years)considering how far it has come in the last 15 years. Mind boggling to say the least!

Toyota/Lexus have always been very competitive and regardless of how you see them as in "selling more SUV's than cars" does not make them "less" of a car maker than BMW. In your mind it does right? I don't get that part Doug............

No offense to you Doug, I respect your opinions and I know I would have bought a 540i two years ago if the reliability records had been better (at least going by Consumer Reports and J.D. Power reports). I know your personal experience with Bimmers and Lexus has been an exception to the norm. Your Bimmer was very reliable unlike your Lexus.

flipside909

amethy, don't worry about him. That's his only line of defense and age old excuse. Point being, Lexus as a whole outsells and is profitable. Trolls are trolls. You already know the credible people here in our community and those who come with the same old excuses.

mmarshall

In this BMW-Lexus-SUV arguement, You also have to consider the fact that Lexus' top-selling SUV, like the BMW X3 and X5, is not a true truck-derived SUV like the GX470 but actually a Camry-derived unibody vehicle that is much more car than truck or traditional SUV.
In this area BMW has taken basically the same route as Lexus....only the RX330 is an extremely reliable vehicle while the X5 has some of the worst reliability ratings on the market; and the X3, while still too new to have enough concrete data, is likely to follow in the X5's footsteps.

mjr24

I think he is somewhat right, but it has to be taken into context. Like someone said, Lexus is not really pushed their cars that hard in Europe.....
In terms of the US though, I do think Lexus is with the big 2.....which really is all that matters.