doug_999

and I strongly disagree with this....

Take the "eat right" - that means no 32oz porterhouse steaks with an incredible glass (ok glasses of wine). Well that's not living in my book.

So if I can buy a car that I LOVE that needs to go in for service more than a bland car (shall we say tofu?), then I choose that because that is living in my book.

Now you might be the tofu loving kind of "I just want my car to get me from point A to point B and never break down" and that's OK, but to some it isn't.

Gekko

Then keep eating your 32 oz. steaks and die young of colon cancer or a heart attack. And go buy a MB or BMW and spend lots of time and money in the shop.

TO EACH HIS OWN!

doug_999

BMWs come with free scheduled maint for the first four years - so you actually spend less money in the shop (compared to Lexus) which means more $ for the yummy steaks

Gekko

1. TIME is a nonrenewable commodity.
2. Nothing is really "free" in this world.

mmarshall

I looked up some of the owner satisfaction graphs for you, Mike....in Consumer Reports, which may not be the best cross-section of either BMW or Lexus owners....but has some of the most complete data available on both reliability and owner satisfaction.

ALL of the current Lexus models in production scored either a half-red circle (above average) or a full-red circle (much better then average) in owner satisfcation.

BMW models varied quite a bit across the board. The current 3-series and the Chris Bangle 5-series got a half-red circle. The Z4 got a full-red circle. The X5 got a white circle (average). The 7-series (not surprisingly) got a half-black circle (worse then average) The X3 and new 6-series were too new to have a data base...they were not rated yet.

redkingjoe

well, it's my observation, i see this everyweek constantly:

1 every Fri, Sat and Sun, most of the cars that are dead on the freeways are BMW and MB(70% BMW and 20% MB and 10% all others). the reasons for Ford, Jaquar, SAAB, Vovol were not so often spoted was because they are gradually dying in sales.

2 nevertheless, when i talked to my BMW friends, they are mostly repeated customers and will buy again...they are very used to the pleasure of taking the car to fix...it seems that repairing will add lovely monthly activities that are both pleasurable which will remind them that they are BMW owners. they are also very used to having problems in the freeway...including such things like "sudden stop" because of engine malfunction.

3 after all this, i think "secondary gain" is a good term in psychology

<VENOM>

The only reason I've ever seen BMW or MB on the side of the road is the 20 plus size wheels they have can't take a pot hole other then that I've never seen a German vehicle in the break down lane, usually Fords and Chevys.

As far as the problems in German cars, none of the issues are related to driveablity, just cause the seat wants to superheat your butt like your sitting on a frying pan does not mean you can't drive, I-drive might suck but that only means you can't figure out the cars features, overall I think they should lighten up on the electronics and make the cars simple, how come Lexus has electronics in their cars and they work fine.

From what it seems the Germans are getting back on track, the worst problems where around 99, 00 and the new vehicles don't seem to be having the issues

mmarshall

Studies have been done on this subject......and we've done entire threads on this, so I'm not going to repeat all of the details, but the main problem boils down to the Japanese-designed electrical connectors being much simpler in design and easier to install on assembly lines, especially when the worker cannot physically see it but has to install it by feel alone. European connectors don't give you the solid " snap " that Japanese ones do, so under less-than-ideal conditions they are often installed loosely, incorrectly, or even backwards.....and many of them have to be re-done correctly at the dealerships when they fail.

Gekko

I must repost again - extracted from the edmunds.com forum -

Toyota designs cars in an entirely different way from other manufacturers. They design it from the bottom up that is mostly from already proven components from other models. New technology is applied but always with backup components throughout most of the design process. Therefore, regardless of costs, new car models will be consistently reliable. Other manufacturers primarily design a car from the top down with comprehensive specifications, which drive too much new design throughout all the components. The result is poor long-term reliability, but bunches of new technologies spread throughout the car. The bottom line is that Toyota knows how to blend new technologies with proven components, regardless of costs.

Toyota and Honda operate 6 sigma production target facilities and give workers the ability to shut down the line if components don't fit or meet spec. They design their cars to be assembled only one way - the right way. Suppliers are driven mercilessly. They carefully track when, where and from which supplier faulty parts come from, so Toyota can return them. If the supplier defect level is too high, they shut them off. The amazing thing about the process is that the supply chain grows and learns to be very responsive and very competitive. It's even working in the U.S. where turning out crap and sending it to Detroit was a way of life for suppliers long before Toyota and Honda showed up. Toyota and Honda have the 'platform' approach to design, where a basic engine/transmission and drive train / chassis is targeted at a wide variety of market segments. Small changes in tuning, transmission ratios and engine computer horsepower / torque curves are mated to chassis/suspension to meet performance needs. Toyota and Honda amortize the significant R&D over a very large volume to achieve cost effectiveness. Look at the FWD 3.0 V6 ULEV engine/drive train platform that goes into the Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, RX300, ES300, and Highlander. I think the annual volume for these vehicles is somewhere north of 750,000 in the US alone.

Toyota will always able to make cars cheaper because they have suppliers bend backwards for them. I am an electrical engineer, every time we ask for a price quote, distributors ask for annual quantity. Why? Because the more you buy, the cheaper the per unit the cost. They drool every time you say 250K instead of 100K per year. Again, the reason why Toyota can get parts cheaper is that they share components with Lexus. How can BMW and MB do that? (OK MB maybe can do that with its Chrysler division now). Also your cost for tooling is more when, for example, BMW makes a mold for an engine that they make about 50K engines as compared to Lexus+Toyota that churn maybe 100K or more.

mmarshall

Much of what you describe about Honda and Toyota also applies to Subaru....a division of Fuji Heavy Industries. They also consistantly make reliable vehicles....in much the same manner, although it took them several years to get a handle on the head-gasket problems in the 2.5L flat-4 engine.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Yes but, and I think many would agree, even if they PAID ME to get the warranty work done it's still a pain in the butt to go to the dealer, have to either wait there for the work to be done or get the loaner - it's just a hassle, especially in any town that has bad traffic.

I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO VISIT A DEALER except for scheduled maintenance or because I want to check out something I might want to buy. I've got better things I can do with my time.

<VENOM>

I hate dealers but it seems that they do more damage to customer cars then the actual cost of the work

doug_999

Right - but.... please remember that the German cars have a lot more technology in addition to the crappy connectors. The 7 series alone has 128 different motors. This stuff breaks more - plain and simple. To me they are pushing the technolgy edge and unfortunately reliability and often simplicity are suffering.


True Bit, very true - but I would argue that at least BMW dealers know how to fix cars (cause they break a lot!). I did have a clutch issue on my 3-series that was easily fixed - as opposed to my issues with both of my Lexus vehicles that required numerous trips to the dealer to get fixed. Case in point - my RX300 front passenger speaker has shorted out on and off since the day we have bought it. Dealer some how can not duplicate. Now at 63K it is out completely. I can't wait to fight them on this one. But the point is we brought it in three times for this damn issue. And the ticking on my GS took countless dealers and trips to the dealers before it was finally resolved.

redkingjoe

in my life, i've really got lot of friends that really love BMW no matter what you say, no matter what the review say and no matter how many times they got in unexpected troubles....10 years ago when my wife was chating with all her male colleages, most of the younger staff named BMW325i as their dream cars...

i think it's a matter of taste...if you love/like something...you might need to accept the troubles that go with it...just like one of my friends who faithfully serve his jacque on a weekly basis...bring to repair...fix this and that...and he never complains too