mmarshall

At the Geneva Auto Show, Lexus announced plans for a European-only four-cylinder 2.2L common-rail diesel IS220 with 177 HP. The torque figure has not been published ( flip or liz...maybe you have it?)

What are your thoughts on this? With gas prices already scary and getting scarier, especially in CA, and with the prospect of the U.S getting clean, European-style diesel fuel next year, do you think it is a mistake not to try and certify the engine to Federal and CARB standards and bring it here to the U.S. ?
Two of the chief complaints with the first-generation IS were poor fuel mileage and poor winter traction....even with all-season tires and all the electronic traction aids working. The traction problem, obviously, is being addessed by the upcoming AWD version. The gas mileage problem will be addessed to some extent by the new 2.5L gasoline V6....but the 2.2L diesel may be an even better one.
So...what are your feelings on this? I KNOW a lot of you want power....the more the merrier. The question comes up.....would you be willing to trade some high-end HP and the convienience of gassing up anywhere for a much lower redline, potentially higher diesel torque at lower engine speeds (as I said, the official figure has not been released), the inherent durability of a properly-designed diesel ( Lexus, of course, does not make junk ), and, of course, MUCH better fuel mileage?
Today's diesels are far better in most every way than anything even dreamed of 20-25 years ago, when many Americans tried automotive diesels and got burned by their poor design and engineering. At that time, only the Mercedes and Peugeot diesels held up...they were purposely-designed. Most of the other ones were converted gas engines that did not hold up under the stress of diesel compression.
Those days, however, are LONG gone....but the American public had, and still has, a long memory.

I know the question of an IS Hybrid will inevitably come up, but to my knowledge there are no plans yet for an IS hybrid....but flip will probably corrct me here if I am wrong.

GFerg

Noticed that you said you started a topic on this in another thread.

Anyway, I have mixed feelings about it bring the Diesel to the US. First I dont think they should bring it over because Toyota/Lexus seems to be focusing on Hybrids for the US market. I feel that if they bring over a diesel model to the US then they would cannabalize sales of the Hybrid cars. Most would probably notice similar gas mileage and would go with the cheaper car. I also know that BMW is planning to bring over diesel engines nad it would be nice to see if they succeed or not. Lexus should and more than likely monitor the market for diesel powered luxo cars in the US and then decide to make a move. The only luxo company that is selling a luxo diesel is MB with their E320d. I'm not to sure if that particular model is doing well, I however know that they are not on sale in some states in the Northeast and I believe Cali. Which leads me into the Diesel fuel aspect of this. I know that most people(myself included) think of diesel as sooty, black, instant lung calapser, etc, but until we can change that perception, then most customers will not purchase. The knowledgeable customers might, but how many knowledgeable customers are out there?? There will have to be some heavy marketing to push diesels to sell in the US. Lastly, to me Lexus and diesel doesnt go hand in hand yet in the US. I look at (and others do to) as a pure clean luxury company. I just cant imagine Lexus selling diesels in the US, heck Toyota doesnt even have a diesel in the US yet. Maybe they should start there and then move upmarket with it.

Reason why I think they should bring it to the US is because they want to go head to head with the big dogs from Germany. If they are bringing them over, then Lexus should follow suit. Currently Lexus is not a company to sit on their laurels and watch everyone pass them by. They are going to hit other companies with everything they got. Diesels, like you said marschall, are high in torque, very smooth, low on gas, and in todays world, emit less pollutnats. They sound like a winner to me if this is what you are looking for. It will become a nice option for those who want better fuel economy and dont want to throw out the money to get a hybrid.

I vote "No" for now. Give it a few years, then go for it. Toyota/Lexus has a lot of marketing and observing to do before they bring a deisel to the US. If the public is liking what they see and hear, then they should immediately bring it to the US. No questions asked. I keep reading over and over that Lexus has no plans for diesel power in the US considering that they have hybrid and that they want to move hybrid engines into the next millenium. If they want to move hybrid into the next millenium, then currently diesel has no place in the US, unless they can make them successfully coincide here. We have yet to see that happen in Europe.

What you think marshall??

Gojirra99

If they make an IS450h, it'll blow away the diesel IS220d in performance but still have good fuel economy, that's the primary attraction of the Lexus hybrids, but the hybrids will be the top of the line model & more pricey than the diesel though.

LexFather

Hmmm, well the big thing in America is the diesal perception that it is an inferior car, when it is actually more advanced. Maybe some can chime in why/when this happened?

Lexus is still young and so successful that maybe THEY can help change the perception of diesals, like that are doing with hybrids. On the other hand, it can be a big mistake, buyers can simply dismiss or see the move as downmarket and it can hurt the brand.

Also, if they did bring diesals, they can promote that Lexus offers not 1 but 2 ways to have luxury and gas savings. On the other hand, ain't luxury about excess?

I think Benz was the last luxury car maker selling a diesal here (E320) and I have no idea how it sold but I remember reading an article where it looked the same, offered great economy and torque. BMW is brining back diesals soon. Should Lexus as well?

mmarshall

I've said before that I think diesels make more sense than hybrids for a number of reasons, but with one exception........finding fuel for them away from truck stops can sometimes take a little hunting. Fortunately, because of the diesel's good mileage, you are not likely to run out of fuel WHILE hunting.

If diesels DO become more popular here, the infastructure of stations supporting them will have to increase as well.

Another interesting question ( they haven't said) is whether Lexus will offer the diesel with the AWD...the extra weight and drag of the AWD will, of course, tax the diesel, HP-wise, at higher speeds. The diesel's abundant low-RPM torque should be no problem at low speeds.

XeroK00L

It's in the press release.

"The most powerful engine in its displacement category, the new diesel generates 130 kW / 177 DIN hp (175 SAE hp) at 3,600 rpm and an impressive 400 Nm / 295 lb.ft of torque between 2,000 and 2,400 rpm."

Personally I'd love to see them bring the diesel to the US, at least when the low-sulfur diesel is introduced to the US in 2007. It'll appeal to lots of people who can't afford the hybrid but still wish to save on gas. Besides, I think there will be no hybrid IS due to space constraint. IS220d does make a lot more sense here.

Lil4X

Friends drove an MB E class diesel all over Europe for a month last summer and reported the vehicle to be quiet, luxurious and possessed of a good turn of speed on the autobahn. Fuel consumption was amazingly low while overall performance was quite good for a mid-sized sedan. The first night one driver managed to scare himself appropriately when driving at a steady and sedate 140 on the autobahn south of Frankfurt; he discovered his speedometer was indeed calibrated in mph, rather than kph. The Europeans in recent years have developed the diesel engine - with low sulfur fuel - into a powerful, reliable, and thoroughly delightful powerplant. It stands in stark contrast to the American experience of the diesel some 25 years ago . . .

In 1980 I came near selecting one of the GM diesels as a company car, but another friend took an Olds 98 diesel and right out of the box it was a decent, if pokey little puppy. Within weeks he experienced the common water-in-fuel syndrome that was the bane of the 350 diesels. After multiple stalls and expensive repairs, he went to our marina and had a pair of marine diesel water separators affixed to the firewall, and despite looking like he was packing a pair of NOS (propane?) bottles under the hood, he never had another water problem.

The problem seemed to come from GM's insistence that they could build a V-8 diesel on the same line as their 350 V-8 gas engine. All the experience that GM had with diesel engines was simply tossed away and a "clean sheet" design was adopted that shared as much small block componentry as possible. The result was a disaster of huge proportions. The warranty problems nearly overwhelmed GM, and they began to ignore the loyal customers that had faith in GM, if not the diesel engine . . . thereby losing both.

A year and 15K or so later my friend's engine began shedding parts like a sheepdog in springtime. Injectors, pumps, fuel rails, valves, bearings - everything that could break or simply fall off did, often breaking down out on the highway where AAA was loath to go. The thing spent so much time on the lift, he finally "converted" it to a gas engine. As an indication of the truly miserable design, there was a regular cottage industry of small one-bay shops that sprang up across the nation just to do these conversions . . and they all had a waiting list. With a more conventional powerplant in the engine bay, the car soldiered on for several years, a faithful family steed.

Following his early experience with poor acceleration, initial fuel problems, and the diesel funk that becomes not just part of your environment but a part of your being, I opted for the gas engine in my new Buick company ride, and was forever grateful that I did. It was not much quicker (read: "less slow") and it was reasonably quiet and, best of all, didn't make your dinner companion sniff, wrinkle her tiny upturned nose, and ask, "What's THAT?"

Responsibility, my dear, to the environment . . .

Richie

I think if the people in the US are open to it, they could have a good earner with the diesel. Especially since gas prices are sky high.

biker

The 3000 E320d allocated to the US for last year sold out in two months. It gets over 30MPG and has better passing times than the regular E320 (0-60 times is a bit slower).

In most applications the diesel engine is about a $1000 option over a similar sized gas engine.

50% of cars in Europe are diesel - it might take some time but folks in the US will wake up to the facts that made Europeans buy in such numbers.

Given the almost direct tit-for-tat response that Lexus has with the IS for the 3 series I can probably predict that within a few months of a diesel announcement from BMW you'll hear the same thing from Lexus. Watch for an '08 IS220d in the US.

Blackraven

There is in fact a very high chance that the IS220d will reach the US/Canada and because it has too.


In other diesel-related news, I heard that Honda was planning to put diesel engines on its NA lineup.


Their current 2.2 i-CTDI engine already surpasses the very stringent EURO IV emissions (is there already a EURO V???).


I'm thinking that they would expand their diesel engine technology by adding more engine displacements.


Aside from Honda, MB has vowed to even add tons more of diesel engines with ranges of engine displacements (including that TRI-TURBO COMMONRAIL DIESEL ENGINE).


Plus, BMW may bring some diesels in to compete with MB (ie. BMW 535d with 560 Nm/413 lb-ft. of torque@ 2,000 rpm with 500 Nm/369 lb-ft. of yummy torque available @ just 1,500 rpm)


Torqueelicious indeed.

Plus with low-sulfur diesel coming to the US and Canada starting 2006, you take emissions down to an ultimately lower level.

biker

I have a feeling the CA tree huggers will find a way to exclude "politically incorrect" diesels from the state regradless of how clean they get. They did for the current E320d.

flipside909

Well if that was the case, then all diesel passenger car sales would be non existent in CA. Think about it.

Incendiary

Yes, they should. However, Toyota is a conservative company, and rarely seems to take the lead in anything. Rather, they take what's out there and improve upon it. It's smart business, because they minimize risks and play up what's popular. I guess that's why I'm impressed that they're striving to be one of the first to expand hybrids to their full line-up of luxury cars.

STIG

there's always bio-diesel for those "politically correct" folks.

anyway, i remember driving 2.0 2C diesel engine toyota corona when i was in my country and you can forget about filling up the tank for a month or so.


i am sure this generation diesel engine is much more advanced and i would love to see that car over here and of course 290+ft-lb is always nice.