ebruce2

iTrader: (1)

I agree that we as americans buy EMOTIONALLY and therefore with a great emphasis on image. It is indeed funy that few people know where their vehicle is being assembled.

With that being said, it would be interesting to see an objective study of where the breakdown of sub-par vehicles actually occurs, i.e. US vs. foreign marques in the areas of design, engineering, production and assembly. I guess these factors could be more easily established on a model-by-model basis rather than by brand?

UDel

I agree that many Americans feel better buying Japanese makes made in America then American makes made in America. Saying many Japanese models are more shoddy built when made in America except Toyotas because only Toyotas are high quality and it is understandable someone buying only a Toyota over domestics because they are a superior product shows a clear bias to Toyota and against other brands. Toyota has had issues with cars and engines just like other manufaturers and are not exempt. I have been in Toyotas that squeek, rattle, and have had mechanical problems just like other makes. There are many reasons people chose other makes over Toyota Camrys and Corrollas. People may want more sporty exciting cars instead of mostly unexciting Buick like cars. Toyota has abandoned its enthusiasts base for too many different SUV's, pickups, and floaty cars to grab sales in America from American makes instead of sportier Japanese makes. I would like to see Toyota go back to the days when they had Supra Turbos, MR2 turbos, and Celica all trac turbos etc on the lots. Right now Toyota does not sell anything that would get me and other enthusiasts excited to visit their lots. Lexus is making more passionate and exciting cars with the new IS, GS, and possible LFA so Toyota should follow and put out some more affordable exciting high performance cars.

Many Americans bought the Altima when it first came out because it was bigger then the competition, had more interior/trunk room plus it had a 240hp v-6 option when most of its competitors had 200hp sixes. Americans forgave the cheaper plastics because they assumed the mechanicals would be sound. Most Nissans are very reliable cars. The Maxima had a loyal following so it is no suprise they retained customers even though the car is different now. The Honda civic has been known for being a very safe, reliable, well made sporty car that holds its value so it sells very well. The new civic does have a less sophisticated suspension set up but it did gain interior room because of it which most people wanted besides enthusiasts. Honda has the choice of the S2000 or Acura RSX if you want a more sporty car. I have never been in an Acura especially a TL and felt it was low quality or that an Aurora was as nice or nicer. Americans buy TL's because they are very good looking, have a very nice high quality interior, Honda/Acura reliability, 270hp standard, good handling and comes loaded at a good price. I really can't see any reason to choose an ES over the TL after test driving both.

Infiniti G35s, older M45s, and Q45s have been critisized because of cheap materials, quality, and reliability glitches and they are made in Japan. 2000+ Toyota Celica 4 cylinders and older Toyota v-6 engines had problems like sludge build up and reliability issues. My cousin went through 2 engines in his 01 Celica within 2 years and they are made in Japan. Some Mitsubishis that are made in America have had horrible reliability in the past and now many Americans will not buy Mitsubishis even though it is a Japanese brand. Mazda rotary powered RX-7's are made in Japan and have horrible engine issues. It is not just American made Japanese brands that have some quality reliability problems and Americans will stop buying Japanese brands that fall short of quality and reliability.

I too do not like when people especially Americans bash products made by Americans because they assume it will be inferior to other countries products especially Japanese but in the past that unfortunately was the case for many products. I think the main reason Americans prefer Japanese brand cars is that Americans grew accustomed to most Honda's, Toyota's, Nissan's, and many Mazda's being known for very well built cars, holding their value, and having good performance from the 80's to today. GM, Chrysler, and Ford took a nose dive in quality in the past and were known for being poorly built, using cheap materials, old technology, and having poor resale values. Recalls and coverups of unsafe dangerous vehicles in the past did not help their reputations. To this day Japanese cars especially ones made in America usaully end up being the most well built reliable cars you can buy.

American cars are getting better in reliability and are now more reliable then most European brands but still do not have the desireability, driving experience, or high quality interiors. Hyundai used to be known for cheap poorly made cars but are now building quality products even though they do not have any really desirable cars. I think a rear drive sports car, v-8 luxury coupe or sedan for well under 40 thousand that is as good or better then 50-70 thousand dollar cars would put some excitement into the brand. With all the problems American companies are going through right now hopefully they will learn they can't survive by just building giant SUVs and pickup trucks and start making cars Americans will chose over Japanese brands without rebates. Maybe a new American car company that only focuses on higher quality and higher performance then its European and Japanese rivals with no unions or cost cutters is what is needed to revive the American automobile industry. People are still wary of American brands mostly from past experiences and there are still many American cars with poor quality and materials sitting on the lots to this day so people end up choosing more trusted Japanese brands no matter where they are made.

Inabj2

I agree with the points brought up in this thread, Im in no way import or domestic biased (ill admit that once upon a time I used to be.) Ill buy a vehicle because I LIKE that vehicle. But it is in my oppinion that when it comes what people believe to be true and what is actually true, theyre about 10 - 15 years behind.

The cobalt a car Id pick over a civic down right, (hmm Cobalt SS or Civic Si ... though choice there.) IS suffering just because it is known as a cavalier replacement. There is noting american manufacturers can do about this except to keep on realeasing great quality products, maybe in 10-20 years people will notice, HEY american cars are now on par again!

GRAND_LS 4

iTrader: (2)

Did you guys forget that american cars are the worse of investments? A 50K caddy/Lincoln will be worth 10K in less then 4 years.

Celicamaro

People judge japanese vehicles based on their long term merits like quality, reliability, superior customer services(lexus,infinti,acura), cheap to own and maintain,etc, not style, power or flash. That is the reputation they have worked very hard to developed for the last 3-4 decades. That's why Camry, accord, Civics and other mundane japanese vehicles outsells everyone else consistantly. Lexus were bought for the same reasons. The Euros and americans were mostly about image, luxury, power and style. Everyones got their niche. The Koreans have gotten better, but they've not carve themselves a niche except filling in the market segment the japanese started and no longer compete in. Koreans started out really bad in quality. They have no style and no high quality reputation to be proud of. If the Japanese were to go back to the cheap car segment, Koreans would be in big trouble.

When people knock on Nissans qualities, what are they talking about? Is it the plastic? The grains on the plastic panels? Is it the execution? Is it the actual shape of the design that looked cheap? Is it the coarser engine? Is it the constant whining from the press? What the heck is it?

From my own experience, Nissans interior is stll alot better than the Koreans, americans and the Infinti stuffs are superior to many Euros(Volvo, saab, jag, Last gen ML/E/S class Mercs). I assume when people knock on Nissan and Infiniti, they are comparing it with the best, that would be Lexus and Audi IMO. Just about everybody else look cheap when compare to these two brands. So totally writing Nissan/Infiniti off as cheap is not being fair or just not looking at the bigger picture.

A friend of mine who owns a used car lot that specializes in only Toyota, Honda, Nissan ONLY says in all his 15yrs he has not yet seen a Toyota V6 engine outlast a Nissan or Honda and he has yet to see a Nissan/Honda 4cyl engine outlast a Toyota 4cyl. But in general, under 200k Nissans are just as reliable as Toyota and Honda if not more and alot cheaper to maintain(timing chain). Their motors are gutsier but makes domestic sounding noises. Honda body structures tend to remain the tightest and also has the best window seals. Honda shocks also lasts the longest before needing to be replaced(around 130k). Their engines are the loudest at idle due to thin hollow aluminum blocks. Toyota's iron blocked 4cyls are the smoothest and quietest, but their shocks don't generally last more than 60K. Their engines may use a timing belt, but is of the noninterfering design unlike Honda. But all 3 make suffer from exhaust sytems rusting out, axle boots tearing off, and valve cover leakages. Changing axles on Toyotas are the most costly in terms of labor. Nissans fuel injectors almost always go bad after 120K. Honda oil filters are a pain in the **** and always causes a big mess.

Bottom line is that all three makes have their advantages and disadvantges, but all are winners in their own ways depend on your flavor. Myself, I prefer used Hondas over used Nissans/Toyotas cuz Hondas with the exceptions of the current models are just generally more fun to drive and gets slightly better fuel economy(smaller displacement/lightweight).

Japanese vehicles being made in america is not that big an issue for me since it is the better design and better management that determines the overall quality of a vehicle. The problem comes from when one needs repair work and is being done by the local american service shop(dealers included), that's when **** happens. Dealers only bringout their master tech when you bytch and moan long enough, otherwise they let all the losers and rookies get their training on your vehicles but still charges you an arm and a leg. This is the time to make friends with a good reliable mechanic or consider leasing or buying new every 3-5yrs.

Celicamaro

They do, over and over again, Explorer still outsells all other SUVs combined last I checked. That vehicle is consistantly rated last by all mag shootouts, has the most quality issues, bland styling, flimsy body structure, horrible fit and finish etc...it's totally the opposite from a camry that actually earned it's high sales numbers. Bash Ford and you'll always get a ton of angry responses from the "patriatic americans" who will defend Ford or GM products as if they were gods gift to the automotove world.

mmarshall

Wait till those "patriotic Americans" find out that the " All-American " Ford Crown Vic........... the darling of cops, taxi drivers, and senior citizens...........is legally considered a foreign car, with more foreign-outsourced parts on it then domestic. I'd like to see the look on their faces.

Ford does this to get around the CAFE gas-mileage requirements for American-sourced cars. By keeping the Crown Vic more foreign than domestic, its generally low mileage with the V8 does not figure into Ford's CAFE average. Smart.

<VENOM>

Hospitals are run the same way, interns work on you

Lexusfreak

It's a very intresting topic you bring up 1SICK! I have to agree with you........as an example, my 2001 Maxima was built in Japan & was pretty well bolted together......I drove the redesigned 2004 Max & WOW what a difference & the lackluster workmanship. Now why is that? I know the Max & Altima is built in the U.S. now (not going to knock anyone or country here as the Camry is built in Kentucky & is of very good quality!). I have heard about some quality, fit & finish woes on the new Avalon however.....perhaps some early teething issues because it's a brand new model?

For some reason it just seems like som plants excell regardless of the country of origin......but others falter such as the M-B plant in the States, BMW had trouble. Many popular GM mid-sized cars are built just down the road from me in Oshawa Ontario.......plant has won many quality awards.....I've driven the vehicles & they are first class & nicer than some Japanese cars built right here in North America & overseas......so why not more on the road? My guess is so many people have had so many problems & disappointments with past North American brands that out of principal, they will not return to that brand ever again.

Would I buy another Nissan? I'm leaning to the nea side of that for several reasons (one is in fact of because of the problems I have heard with them since the transfer to another plant) & so far reliability has been sketchy at best. Would I buy another Lexus? YOU BETCHA! Another GM product? Yes I would, if they have the product I am looking for & I never had any 'serious' problems with any GM product & neither has my family. Just my 2 cents.

<VENOM>

Maximas are nice cars that are well built, different quality with the American versions but still the same.

Domestic cars had their chance and could of did things to push the imports out of the country but the Domestics let them come in and sell cars that they should have made, just take the gas crunch of the 70's people only bought smaller imports cause of the higher mileage, big *** heavy domestic cars got maybe 10mpg on the highway, they never jumped on the trend and gave the customers what they wanted, the Domestics have screwed up to much and let the imports walk right in.

Maybe a new thread should be started, but it should have a vehicle history and your current rides and what your using for comparison and persons age, Im almost 26 and have no real history with domestics, most people say domestics suck, but other then yeah they suck whats your facts to back that up, my father is 70 and has owned every car out their, he switched to Mitsubishi in 1990 a galant with a 4cylinder, he got tired of the costly repairs on Domestics and the time and time again that the same thing would break, parts are expensive when the car is out of warranty.

My old man can say a domestic sucks and list his GM's that he owned that where nothing but problems, he owned some Fords but they fell apart, and Chrysler was horrible so back to GM, nothing like throwing money away, ask my old man what he has done to the japanese cars he has owned since 90 and he has done nothing but routine maintenance and new tires, he still can't get over the fact that he has never had a japanese car in for alignment.

So if anyone has read this far, if you got my point list your reasons why the domestics suck or why the american made imports suck, ride quality, looks and just cause you think is kinda lame, the Domestics have crapped on their customers for years and suddenly they make a somewhat competitve car and their gonna turn the company around.

What I would like to see is someone who buys imports switch to an actual domestic cause they think it's so great, I don't see it happeneing.

I don't know why people pick on the Nissans but Nissan makes an excellent Altima and Maxima, I would not compare them to a Lexus for obvious reason but they are what they are and they hold up well with high mileage which seems to be the domestics weak point, any domestic seems to self destruct after 40-60k on it.

Bash the Nissans but the Altimas and Camrys are equals.

Last thing I'll say is cars in the around 40k price range make anything less expensive more obvious, when I got my ES the 00 Altima I had went from nice to what a POS, I noticed how rough the engine was how hard the ride was but it was still a good car for the price I paid, my fathers LS has a sticker of 70 something, that car makes my ES seem like a Corolla and my 4Runner seems like an actual truck

I'll say it again, I've driven both the Japanese Maxima and the US Max and Altima and they are fine cars, don't really understand what their problem is or the shoddy quality is, if you don't like it don't buy it, but I doubt the Domestics are better then them in the long run.

My fathers friend just got a new Avalon cause the Buick LaCrosse was a Pontiac Grand Prix rebadged, he's another old guy who can truely bash domestics

toy4two

The CIVIC has not just been recently taking steps backwards, it all started in the mid 90s. The 1995 Civic EX had 4 wheel disc brakes, then in 1996+ they went to drums in the rear on the EX.... I hope the Colbalt does well, it has the specs on paper to beat the CIVIC.


The new Pontiac Solstice might even take out the Miata, I would drive one and I've never owned a American car in my life.

Americans just don't do enough research. Most don't know the difference b/w unibody construcion vs body on a frame, double wishbone suspension vs struts vs leaf, disc vs drum. Or maybe they do but they opt for the worse technology because it comes with a Toyota or Honda badge, but we've seen their reliability not be as untouchable as last decade...

As far as better interiors check out the new Corvette, GM is getting closer to the imports all the time... if only Detroit would ditch the leaf springs in the rear, get multivalve dual over head cam engines in that car the young people that appreciate technology would lust after them instead of Japaneese Skylines, Supras, and M3s.

PitBull

My 2 cents, GM's seem to be ugly or of poor quality, plus you pass yourself every few minutes. My Z is good looking, fun to drive and other then the interior being a little cheap, I like it better then the Porsche Boxter. I've owned several Porsches - 944, 911, 928S4. Expensive to own and expensive to buy. The Corvette is too common and looks like a big ****, and I already have my own so why buy one from GM?? The Viper is just way too goofy lookin and "look at me" then anyone but a Rap star would want to drive. The Honda S2000 is too small looking, but a quality ride and the Mercedes SLK is a chick car and the new SL is too expensive and quality issues. The Lexus SC430 is high quality but I'm not that big on convertibles, but I do like its looks with the top up and I like the convertible hardtop idea, I would buy a used one, if I got tired of the Z. Ok I'm tire of typing now. Plus who cares what I think anyway???

mmarshall

I care what you think...you are a CL member. But...why do you call the SLK a " Chick " car? That is nonsense.....just one more unjustified auto stereotype in a whole marketplace full of them. If you can put up with the crappy M-B electronics and hardware, there is no reason why a MALE of ANY age cannot drive one....and many DO.

PitBull

The original SLK's were just too small, made a normal sized guy look like he was driving a go-kart, girls bought/were seen driving most of them. I think the new 350 SLK's look better since they are bigger and I don't see the new ones as chick cars. I would buy a used SL before I would look at the SLK. I've seen several 2000 SL500's with 30K miles on them in the mid $30K price range that I would love to trade my wifes 350Z for but she loves her Z

PS- I also think the Honda S2000 is too small and anyone that is over 5'7" looks like they are driving a go-cart.

<VENOM>

Im 6'2 and 230lb and I get the small car thing, sometimes I feel like I could wear certain cars, not so much a chick car as it fit them better cause most girls are smaller but I pity bigger guys