Americans will buy American made shoddy built Japanese cars but not American ones
05-08-05, 05:14 PM
#1
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Americans will buy American made shoddy built Japanese cars but not American ones
Its time for a nice controversial topic (its been quiet) 
.
So I noticed, the GM/Ford bashing is in full effect, even with new and improved products. As a matter of fact, their cars and SUVs have never been better. Now we'll leave Toyota out of this, since their products are of high quality, so its totally understandable someone buying a Toyota over a domestic, since they are 9 times outta 10 buying a higher quality product.
Iceman said it best about Nissan "Expensive yet In-expensive". Its amazing to me, how Americans are buying these cars/SUVs in droves, even though the quality is sub-par. Its amazing, they are built in America, yet, there are no arguements that buying "American made" is bad, when its an import branded company. After being in a new Pathfinder and Altima (friends) this weekend, its amazing, people will buy these but not an American car.
Is it the marketing? The Altima is a horrible driving car. Rough, course, drives like a big boat. Yet marketing has the car doing 180s in the sand so I guess people think they are sporty (they are sporty looking). If you read the Altima forums, the car is built awfully. Yet, they LOVe it and overlook everything.
Even I am to blame myself with the GM bashing, I remember posting a G6 sucks thread. Yet, in comparison, the cars plastics are on par and the car seems just as well built. So what gives?
People will buy Civics in droves, even though the suspension took a step BACKWARDS in the current generation. The car is a top 10 selling car still. Driving the current gen to the last gen, its VERY EASY to feel the difference in the ride. Its now worse. And IMO, the car is uglier. Yet they sell like no tomorrow.
The Chevy Cobalt, well its a pretty damn solid car. We are not sure of reliablity yet (the civic is as reliable as they come) but toe for toe, the 2 cars are pretty evenly matched. But the Civic will have no problem selling, no matter what while the Cobalt will need incentives galore.
We come to the Acura TL. IMO, the Oldsmobile Aurora was just as good a car, with a V-8 option. The TL is off the Consumer Reports Recommended list (even though they really like the car) as the quality problems have surfaced there. We all know about the tranny recall. REad the forums, the car is not built to 35k specifications. Yet they sell in droves and the Auora as well as Oldsmobile is discontinued. Gone.
The Nissan Maxima, another poor quality, shoddy car. Nissan can sell 100k of these a year, but people won't buy a Buick Lucerne. The Lucerne is the BETTER car. The Lucerne should sell twice as much. What gives?
I do agree, the Americans are behind with some engine choices. The Ford 500 having ONLY a 203 hp engine is RIDICULOUS in 2005. Even the damn CAMRY has a 230hp engine, let alone the much faster 3.5 Altima and Accord V-6.
People will complain and argue, American cars are still built like crap, the interiors still suck etc etc and I LOOK AROUND some Japanese offerings and the cars are NO BETTER or WORSE than the American cars.
I see the KOREANS advancing left and right and people giving Kia and Hyundai 2nd and 3rd chances (they were the WORST in quality). They are selling more and more cars/SUVs.
If we can give the KOREANS multiple chances, why not GM/Ford?
.So I noticed, the GM/Ford bashing is in full effect, even with new and improved products. As a matter of fact, their cars and SUVs have never been better. Now we'll leave Toyota out of this, since their products are of high quality, so its totally understandable someone buying a Toyota over a domestic, since they are 9 times outta 10 buying a higher quality product.
Iceman said it best about Nissan "Expensive yet In-expensive". Its amazing to me, how Americans are buying these cars/SUVs in droves, even though the quality is sub-par. Its amazing, they are built in America, yet, there are no arguements that buying "American made" is bad, when its an import branded company. After being in a new Pathfinder and Altima (friends) this weekend, its amazing, people will buy these but not an American car.
Is it the marketing? The Altima is a horrible driving car. Rough, course, drives like a big boat. Yet marketing has the car doing 180s in the sand so I guess people think they are sporty (they are sporty looking). If you read the Altima forums, the car is built awfully. Yet, they LOVe it and overlook everything.
Even I am to blame myself with the GM bashing, I remember posting a G6 sucks thread. Yet, in comparison, the cars plastics are on par and the car seems just as well built. So what gives?
People will buy Civics in droves, even though the suspension took a step BACKWARDS in the current generation. The car is a top 10 selling car still. Driving the current gen to the last gen, its VERY EASY to feel the difference in the ride. Its now worse. And IMO, the car is uglier. Yet they sell like no tomorrow.
The Chevy Cobalt, well its a pretty damn solid car. We are not sure of reliablity yet (the civic is as reliable as they come) but toe for toe, the 2 cars are pretty evenly matched. But the Civic will have no problem selling, no matter what while the Cobalt will need incentives galore.
We come to the Acura TL. IMO, the Oldsmobile Aurora was just as good a car, with a V-8 option. The TL is off the Consumer Reports Recommended list (even though they really like the car) as the quality problems have surfaced there. We all know about the tranny recall. REad the forums, the car is not built to 35k specifications. Yet they sell in droves and the Auora as well as Oldsmobile is discontinued. Gone.
The Nissan Maxima, another poor quality, shoddy car. Nissan can sell 100k of these a year, but people won't buy a Buick Lucerne. The Lucerne is the BETTER car. The Lucerne should sell twice as much. What gives?
I do agree, the Americans are behind with some engine choices. The Ford 500 having ONLY a 203 hp engine is RIDICULOUS in 2005. Even the damn CAMRY has a 230hp engine, let alone the much faster 3.5 Altima and Accord V-6.
People will complain and argue, American cars are still built like crap, the interiors still suck etc etc and I LOOK AROUND some Japanese offerings and the cars are NO BETTER or WORSE than the American cars.
I see the KOREANS advancing left and right and people giving Kia and Hyundai 2nd and 3rd chances (they were the WORST in quality). They are selling more and more cars/SUVs.
If we can give the KOREANS multiple chances, why not GM/Ford?
05-08-05, 05:20 PM
#2
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And its funny but so many people argue that they don't care about image and they would rather "value" in luxury than a true luxury brand. Some state they don't care what brand the luxury car is.
Well how about American cars? Does owning a GM/Ford now say nothing but "I got a rebate"? Does somehow owning a Honda or Toyota and Nissan and DARE I SAY a Kia mean MORE than owning a Ford or Chevy or Pontiac?
I don't care what people say, IMAGE is a huge subconcious reason for buying cars (and most items). Is the Ford/GM image so bad and the Japanese image that good?
Should the government step in? Should buyers of American made cars like the Avalon, Acura Tl, Camry, BMW X5, Benz ML, Infiniti QX56, Nissan Maxima, etc etc be notified upon BUYING that "hey you are BUYING an AMERICAN MADE car".
I would love 20/20 or someone to do a survey to see if that would effect buying decisions. Not sure about your friends, but I have YET to meet one that knows their Japanese BRANDED car is made right here, down the street, in good ole America (I even have one that refuses to acknowledge his Camry is made in Kentucky).
Well how about American cars? Does owning a GM/Ford now say nothing but "I got a rebate"? Does somehow owning a Honda or Toyota and Nissan and DARE I SAY a Kia mean MORE than owning a Ford or Chevy or Pontiac?
I don't care what people say, IMAGE is a huge subconcious reason for buying cars (and most items). Is the Ford/GM image so bad and the Japanese image that good?
Should the government step in? Should buyers of American made cars like the Avalon, Acura Tl, Camry, BMW X5, Benz ML, Infiniti QX56, Nissan Maxima, etc etc be notified upon BUYING that "hey you are BUYING an AMERICAN MADE car".
I would love 20/20 or someone to do a survey to see if that would effect buying decisions. Not sure about your friends, but I have YET to meet one that knows their Japanese BRANDED car is made right here, down the street, in good ole America (I even have one that refuses to acknowledge his Camry is made in Kentucky).
05-08-05, 05:27 PM
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People who are bashing on American made cars are justa acting on past experience. When this chick i used to know bought a 2001 ford tourus, it ended up being in the shop 5 times in the first year of her owning it. The way i see it buying american cars can be attributed to these reasons:
1) The need to own large SUV's/Trucks which IMO are the best. Buying large american cars are the only way to go. I have never heard of any Ford/GM/Dodge trucks being lemons.
2) Also i think buying American cars is attrbuted to the publics support of the US economy. After hearing in the news how bad Domestic companies are moving their factories abroad Nationalism does take over in peoples minds.
3) And Finally buying American cars will not be a hassle if you buy the expensive ones. The way I see it is you get what you pay for. Notice how the small car market is dominated by Japanese/Korean/Euro cars, but when it comes to Large luxury cars/suvs Cadillacs or Lincolns are the way to go.
Correct me if im wrong on any of this.
1) The need to own large SUV's/Trucks which IMO are the best. Buying large american cars are the only way to go. I have never heard of any Ford/GM/Dodge trucks being lemons.
2) Also i think buying American cars is attrbuted to the publics support of the US economy. After hearing in the news how bad Domestic companies are moving their factories abroad Nationalism does take over in peoples minds.
3) And Finally buying American cars will not be a hassle if you buy the expensive ones. The way I see it is you get what you pay for. Notice how the small car market is dominated by Japanese/Korean/Euro cars, but when it comes to Large luxury cars/suvs Cadillacs or Lincolns are the way to go.
Correct me if im wrong on any of this.
05-08-05, 05:35 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by BlkGS3
People who are bashing on American made cars are justa acting on past experience. When this chick i used to know bought a 2001 ford tourus, it ended up being in the shop 5 times in the first year of her owning it. The way i see it buying american cars can be attributed to these reasons:
1) The need to own large SUV's/Trucks which IMO are the best. Buying large american cars are the only way to go. I have never heard of any Ford/GM/Dodge trucks being lemons.
2) Also i think buying American cars is attrbuted to the publics support of the US economy. After hearing in the news how bad Domestic companies are moving their factories abroad Nationalism does take over in peoples minds.
3) And Finally buying American cars will not be a hassle if you buy the expensive ones. The way I see it is you get what you pay for. Notice how the small car market is dominated by Japanese/Korean/Euro cars, but when it comes to Large luxury cars/suvs Cadillacs or Lincolns are the way to go.
Correct me if im wrong on any of this.
1) The need to own large SUV's/Trucks which IMO are the best. Buying large american cars are the only way to go. I have never heard of any Ford/GM/Dodge trucks being lemons.
2) Also i think buying American cars is attrbuted to the publics support of the US economy. After hearing in the news how bad Domestic companies are moving their factories abroad Nationalism does take over in peoples minds.
3) And Finally buying American cars will not be a hassle if you buy the expensive ones. The way I see it is you get what you pay for. Notice how the small car market is dominated by Japanese/Korean/Euro cars, but when it comes to Large luxury cars/suvs Cadillacs or Lincolns are the way to go.
Correct me if im wrong on any of this.
Good post. With 2, Nationalism didn't save MG/Rover from going bankrupt in Engand though, just this year, and out of business it seems to be.......All English companies, Jag, Land Rover, Aston Martin, etc are now all OWNED by outsiders. (correct me if I am wrong)
05-08-05, 05:36 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Its time for a nice controversial topic (its been quiet) .
So I noticed, the GM/Ford bashing is in full effect, even with new and improved products. As a matter of fact, their cars and SUVs have never been better. Now we'll leave Toyota out of this, since their products are of high quality, so its totally understandable someone buying a Toyota over a domestic, since they are 9 times outta 10 buying a higher quality product.
Iceman said it best about Nissan "Expensive yet In-expensive". Its amazing to me, how Americans are buying these cars/SUVs in droves, even though the quality is sub-par. Its amazing, they are built in America, yet, there are no arguements that buying "American made" is bad, when its an import branded company. After being in a new Pathfinder and Altima (friends) this weekend, its amazing, people will buy these but not an American car.
Is it the marketing? The Altima is a horrible driving car. Rough, course, drives like a big boat. Yet marketing has the car doing 180s in the sand so I guess people think they are sporty (they are sporty looking). If you read the Altima forums, the car is built awfully. Yet, they LOVe it and overlook everything.
Even I am to blame myself with the GM bashing, I remember posting a G6 sucks thread. Yet, in comparison, the cars plastics are on par and the car seems just as well built. So what gives?
People will buy Civics in droves, even though the suspension took a step BACKWARDS in the current generation. The car is a top 10 selling car still. Driving the current gen to the last gen, its VERY EASY to feel the difference in the ride. Its now worse. And IMO, the car is uglier. Yet they sell like no tomorrow.
The Chevy Cobalt, well its a pretty damn solid car. We are not sure of reliablity yet (the civic is as reliable as they come) but toe for toe, the 2 cars are pretty evenly matched. But the Civic will have no problem selling, no matter what while the Cobalt will need incentives galore.
We come to the Acura TL. IMO, the Oldsmobile Aurora was just as good a car, with a V-8 option. The TL is off the Consumer Reports Recommended list (even though they really like the car) as the quality problems have surfaced there. We all know about the tranny recall. REad the forums, the car is not built to 35k specifications. Yet they sell in droves and the Auora as well as Oldsmobile is discontinued. Gone.
The Nissan Maxima, another poor quality, shoddy car. Nissan can sell 100k of these a year, but people won't buy a Buick Lucerne. The Lucerne is the BETTER car. The Lucerne should sell twice as much. What gives?
I do agree, the Americans are behind with some engine choices. The Ford 500 having ONLY a 203 hp engine is RIDICULOUS in 2005. Even the damn CAMRY has a 230hp engine, let alone the much faster 3.5 Altima and Accord V-6.
People will complain and argue, American cars are still built like crap, the interiors still suck etc etc and I LOOK AROUND some Japanese offerings and the cars are NO BETTER or WORSE than the American cars.
I see the KOREANS advancing left and right and people giving Kia and Hyundai 2nd and 3rd chances (they were the WORST in quality). They are selling more and more cars/SUVs.
If we can give the KOREANS multiple chances, why not GM/Ford?
.So I noticed, the GM/Ford bashing is in full effect, even with new and improved products. As a matter of fact, their cars and SUVs have never been better. Now we'll leave Toyota out of this, since their products are of high quality, so its totally understandable someone buying a Toyota over a domestic, since they are 9 times outta 10 buying a higher quality product.
Iceman said it best about Nissan "Expensive yet In-expensive". Its amazing to me, how Americans are buying these cars/SUVs in droves, even though the quality is sub-par. Its amazing, they are built in America, yet, there are no arguements that buying "American made" is bad, when its an import branded company. After being in a new Pathfinder and Altima (friends) this weekend, its amazing, people will buy these but not an American car.
Is it the marketing? The Altima is a horrible driving car. Rough, course, drives like a big boat. Yet marketing has the car doing 180s in the sand so I guess people think they are sporty (they are sporty looking). If you read the Altima forums, the car is built awfully. Yet, they LOVe it and overlook everything.
Even I am to blame myself with the GM bashing, I remember posting a G6 sucks thread. Yet, in comparison, the cars plastics are on par and the car seems just as well built. So what gives?
People will buy Civics in droves, even though the suspension took a step BACKWARDS in the current generation. The car is a top 10 selling car still. Driving the current gen to the last gen, its VERY EASY to feel the difference in the ride. Its now worse. And IMO, the car is uglier. Yet they sell like no tomorrow.
The Chevy Cobalt, well its a pretty damn solid car. We are not sure of reliablity yet (the civic is as reliable as they come) but toe for toe, the 2 cars are pretty evenly matched. But the Civic will have no problem selling, no matter what while the Cobalt will need incentives galore.
We come to the Acura TL. IMO, the Oldsmobile Aurora was just as good a car, with a V-8 option. The TL is off the Consumer Reports Recommended list (even though they really like the car) as the quality problems have surfaced there. We all know about the tranny recall. REad the forums, the car is not built to 35k specifications. Yet they sell in droves and the Auora as well as Oldsmobile is discontinued. Gone.
The Nissan Maxima, another poor quality, shoddy car. Nissan can sell 100k of these a year, but people won't buy a Buick Lucerne. The Lucerne is the BETTER car. The Lucerne should sell twice as much. What gives?
I do agree, the Americans are behind with some engine choices. The Ford 500 having ONLY a 203 hp engine is RIDICULOUS in 2005. Even the damn CAMRY has a 230hp engine, let alone the much faster 3.5 Altima and Accord V-6.
People will complain and argue, American cars are still built like crap, the interiors still suck etc etc and I LOOK AROUND some Japanese offerings and the cars are NO BETTER or WORSE than the American cars.
I see the KOREANS advancing left and right and people giving Kia and Hyundai 2nd and 3rd chances (they were the WORST in quality). They are selling more and more cars/SUVs.
If we can give the KOREANS multiple chances, why not GM/Ford?
we can give the koreans multiple chances because they have been improving pretty qucikly during these years.
check out this new hyundai sonata. i think it's a pretty decent car for the pirce. sub 23K for fully loaded V6.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=105488
05-08-05, 06:27 PM
#6
I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I've known lots of people who've owned several Maximas who've put lots of miles 135K+ miles on them with little repair costs except for nromal maintenance and have been very happy with them. Are you talking about reliability/durability quality or comfort/interior/materials/build quality?
Before I bought my 2004 ES330 NAV/ML, I did my due diligence and looked at the 04 TL and the G35. After sitting in both, the TL and G35 interiors felt so cheap - cheap materials - compared to the ES - there was no comparison.
Before I bought my 2004 ES330 NAV/ML, I did my due diligence and looked at the 04 TL and the G35. After sitting in both, the TL and G35 interiors felt so cheap - cheap materials - compared to the ES - there was no comparison.
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05-08-05, 06:41 PM
#8
I have no experience w/ American cars except for ones my friends own.
01 Chevy Malibu V6... in the entry-level mid-sized sedan segment. His engine runs fine, but there are a lot of creeks (creaks? bah), horrid interior materials and a few (now corrected by extended warranty) electrical issues. I guess that was before the "good stuff" came out... unless it's just because it's labeled ENTRY LEVEL.
00 Chevy Suburban (top model, LS, I believe) - The transmission went out right before the powertrain ended (milage). They actually towed boats and seadoos w/ that thing (not at the same time obviously). Of course, they probably just got a 'lemon' of the group, but overall the car was good. No other warranty issues found. They still own it today.
00 Buick... ummm... Camry level car, forgot the name - A few electrical problems (probably their fauly hahaha) but overall working fine.
This shows an example of how the cost of the vehicle (in this case) affected the quality of the car in the GM world. As BlkGS3 said, his friend's Focus went out a few times in a year... so it seems to follow the trend. I don't know of too many quality issues w/ the xA or xB... although I heard the tC interior panels are falling apart... haven't seen one to fall apart yet though (5 friends own that car...)
My friend said that the Fremont Toyota plant (Tacoma, Corolla and Matrix I think) shares the facility with GM (Pontiac Vibe and other cars). The Toyota cars come out w/ less problems vs the GM built cars from the same plant using the same tools (I'm not sure, repeating what he told me) because the workers Toyota does not hire usually end up working for GM at the same plant.
I'm sure you heard Toyota is moving their Tundra plant (or making a new one, or engine building... something Tundra related) to TEXAS!! Texas = Trunkville. I'm sure it's part of their marketing strategy (I think it's some ridiculous % of people in Texas that own a truck) to show that the Tundra is American made in the Land of Trucks. lol. It seems they are using the idea of "American trucks are better" to (we'll see) their advantage.
American cars have come a long way... upside down bell curve hahaha, while Japanese cars (for the most part) have been on the uphill climb since they were considered crap back in the days... Too bad the American companies are forced to put down HUGE rebates now... but it certainly is a way to win SOME of the market back . . . and then, hopefully, retain those customers.
Building the product isn't the challenge... it's building BRAND LOYALTY.
My car was build in CaNaDa, Ayye! lol
01 Chevy Malibu V6... in the entry-level mid-sized sedan segment. His engine runs fine, but there are a lot of creeks (creaks? bah), horrid interior materials and a few (now corrected by extended warranty) electrical issues. I guess that was before the "good stuff" came out... unless it's just because it's labeled ENTRY LEVEL.
00 Chevy Suburban (top model, LS, I believe) - The transmission went out right before the powertrain ended (milage). They actually towed boats and seadoos w/ that thing (not at the same time obviously). Of course, they probably just got a 'lemon' of the group, but overall the car was good. No other warranty issues found. They still own it today.
00 Buick... ummm... Camry level car, forgot the name - A few electrical problems (probably their fauly hahaha) but overall working fine.
This shows an example of how the cost of the vehicle (in this case) affected the quality of the car in the GM world. As BlkGS3 said, his friend's Focus went out a few times in a year... so it seems to follow the trend. I don't know of too many quality issues w/ the xA or xB... although I heard the tC interior panels are falling apart... haven't seen one to fall apart yet though (5 friends own that car...)
My friend said that the Fremont Toyota plant (Tacoma, Corolla and Matrix I think) shares the facility with GM (Pontiac Vibe and other cars). The Toyota cars come out w/ less problems vs the GM built cars from the same plant using the same tools (I'm not sure, repeating what he told me) because the workers Toyota does not hire usually end up working for GM at the same plant.
I'm sure you heard Toyota is moving their Tundra plant (or making a new one, or engine building... something Tundra related) to TEXAS!! Texas = Trunkville. I'm sure it's part of their marketing strategy (I think it's some ridiculous % of people in Texas that own a truck) to show that the Tundra is American made in the Land of Trucks. lol. It seems they are using the idea of "American trucks are better" to (we'll see) their advantage.
American cars have come a long way... upside down bell curve hahaha, while Japanese cars (for the most part) have been on the uphill climb since they were considered crap back in the days... Too bad the American companies are forced to put down HUGE rebates now... but it certainly is a way to win SOME of the market back . . . and then, hopefully, retain those customers.
Building the product isn't the challenge... it's building BRAND LOYALTY.
My car was build in CaNaDa, Ayye! lol
05-08-05, 06:49 PM
#9
It seems like most companies have the internal combustion engine pretty much figured out. The tough part seems to be the ELECTRONICS which control EVERYTHING. And it seems the Japanese have this figured out the best.
05-08-05, 07:58 PM
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Seems a bit harsh on Nissan. They've been screwing together good machines for a long time. Sure recent stuff out of Mississippi has been a bit spotty, but they seem to be figuring it out. As far as Altima is concerned, I've ridden in several and I thought they were very nice. I also see quite a few Xterras, Titans and Pathfinders on the road and people seem happy. The Koreans are doing a nice job on product, but Hyundai and Kia are two of the more souless brands I've ever seen. Lastly, Mazda has some excellent product, but I just don't think they're getting the props and sales they deserve. IMO...
05-08-05, 08:11 PM
#11
I think the issue is that people know that if some sort of problem occurs say in an American built Toyota. We know it will be resolved before hitting the streets.
Sometimes I wonder if the domestics know about the recalls before hand and see if it's worth fixing first or rolling them out to be sold and recalled later.
It's management not where it's built. I'd buy a Toyota built in the middle of the ocean. If it's got Toyota behind it's back I'm sure it can't be bad.
Sometimes I wonder if the domestics know about the recalls before hand and see if it's worth fixing first or rolling them out to be sold and recalled later.
It's management not where it's built. I'd buy a Toyota built in the middle of the ocean. If it's got Toyota behind it's back I'm sure it can't be bad.
05-09-05, 07:02 AM
#12
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by L-Finesser
. . . Lastly, Mazda has some excellent product, but I just don't think they're getting the props and sales they deserve. IMO...
05-09-05, 08:27 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by Gekko
I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I've known lots of people who've owned several Maximas who've put lots of miles 135K+ miles on them with little repair costs except for nromal maintenance and have been very happy with them. Are you talking about reliability/durability quality or comfort/interior/materials/build quality?
Before I bought my 2004 ES330 NAV/ML, I did my due diligence and looked at the 04 TL and the G35. After sitting in both, the TL and G35 interiors felt so cheap - cheap materials - compared to the ES - there was no comparison.
Before I bought my 2004 ES330 NAV/ML, I did my due diligence and looked at the 04 TL and the G35. After sitting in both, the TL and G35 interiors felt so cheap - cheap materials - compared to the ES - there was no comparison.
05-09-05, 09:19 AM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
So I noticed, the GM/Ford bashing is in full effect, even with new and improved products. As a matter of fact, their cars and SUVs have never been better.
We come to the Acura TL. IMO, the Oldsmobile Aurora was just as good a car, with a V-8 option. Yet they sell in droves and the Auora as well as Oldsmobile is discontinued. Gone.
The Nissan Maxima, another poor quality, shoddy car. The Lucerne is the BETTER car. The Lucerne should sell twice as much. What gives?
I do agree, the Americans are behind with some engine choices. The Ford 500 having ONLY a 203 hp engine is RIDICULOUS in 2005
People will complain and argue, American cars are still built like crap, the interiors still suck etc etc and I LOOK AROUND some Japanese offerings and the cars are NO BETTER or WORSE than the American cars.
I see the KOREANS advancing left and right and people giving Kia and Hyundai 2nd and 3rd chances (they were the WORST in quality). They are selling more and more cars/SUVs.
If we can give the KOREANS multiple chances, why not GM/Ford?
We come to the Acura TL. IMO, the Oldsmobile Aurora was just as good a car, with a V-8 option. Yet they sell in droves and the Auora as well as Oldsmobile is discontinued. Gone.
The Nissan Maxima, another poor quality, shoddy car. The Lucerne is the BETTER car. The Lucerne should sell twice as much. What gives?
I do agree, the Americans are behind with some engine choices. The Ford 500 having ONLY a 203 hp engine is RIDICULOUS in 2005
People will complain and argue, American cars are still built like crap, the interiors still suck etc etc and I LOOK AROUND some Japanese offerings and the cars are NO BETTER or WORSE than the American cars.
I see the KOREANS advancing left and right and people giving Kia and Hyundai 2nd and 3rd chances (they were the WORST in quality). They are selling more and more cars/SUVs.
If we can give the KOREANS multiple chances, why not GM/Ford?
OK....my comments.
First of all, GM is FINALLY getting better in some ways, but their fit-and-finish and interior detail still cannot hold a candle to what THEY THEMSELVES were building in the late 60's. GM products back then...and I remember them well.......I was in high school and learning to drive......easily led the industry in fit-and-finish. IMO only M-B was better at that time. The interior detail was marvelous, especially on Buicks and Oldsmobiles...even better than Cadillacs. What happened? Well, from late 1970 on for the full-size cars, and from 1973 on for the mid-sizers and rest of their products, (1970 for the Chevy Vega) GM completely forgot about detail and instead concentrating on cost-cutting.....and the rest is history. Part of it was because of the expenses needed to meet the growing load of Federal regulations.
The Oldsmobile Aurora was not what I would call a good car. It was shoddily made, and the glass for the rear window in the first couple years of production was of such poor quality that it distorted things to the point where your face would look like Michael Jackson's. Olds didn't even put their name on it...the car had only "Aurora" logos and markings....no Oldsmobile markings at all. Check one out if you can find a used one and you'll see what I mean.
I won't disagree with you on the Maxima....you have a point.....but the jury is still out on the Buick Lucerne. It may or may not sell. I myself have not seen it yet or test-driven it. I'll give a report when I do.
I've heard that complaint before about the Five Hundred's engine, but you have to take the fact into account that the heavy AWD models come with a CVT (continuously variable transmission)....THE most efficient transmission ever developed. (even more so than a 6-speed manual). This transmission is SO efficient that it wrings the most possible out of every one of the Five Hundred's 203 horses and torque and gives performance more-or-less equal to a larger V6 with 30 or 40 more horses....along with the same or better mileage than a comparable manual transmission. In fact, I think so highly of the AWD Five Hundred / Freestyle that, for general all-around driving use, It would be one of my top ten choices (probably about #8 or 9)....especially if I was a family man. But...to be honest.....let's wait and see how the CVT trannie holds up....it is relatively new and untested.
You can't directly compare the Korean compaines with Ford and GM. Hyundai, and to a lesser extent Hyundai-owned Kia, completely turned around in the space of just a few years and went from the bottom of the barrel to virtually the top. Someone.......( I think it was you ).....started a whole thread about 3 or 4 weeks ago on how impressive the new Kia Sorento was. GM, especially, has been giving us more or less the same junk since the early-to-mid 1970's...just as I described above. Yes, a few of their VERY latest products.....such as the Buick Lacrosse, Pontiac GTO (part Australian), Chevy Cobalt, Cadillac STS, and a few others.........ARE showing SOME signs of improved fit-and-finish and attention to detail once again, especially on the dash, but the differences between the best domestic nameplates and the best foreign ones...Like Lexus and some of the new Subarus.....are still quite noticible, at least to me.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-09-05 at 09:35 AM.
