Incendiary

Government determinations maybe, but Edmunds, car mags, etc. all seem to have their own definitions of what fits in each class and what competes with what. I'd take into consideration exterior length, price, engine, interior room, basically the gestalt, before deciding what's full, mid, compact, or subcompact sized. However, I still look at length as the primary determinant since it's a very easy way to distinguish cars.

LexFather

The Avalon was orignally intended to be the Buick competition. It offered a front bench option and was based on the Camry with a stretched wheelbase and only 100lbs more than the Camry. The Avalon has built a good name for itself as the Japenese full size car. Today, it extends on those values.

The new Nissan Maxima, I don't care how they market it, is pretty big and full size as well. I suspect there are some Buick owners that are buying this car b/c it is spacious, FWD, fast and the styling is different.

But even then, as MMarshall has stated, they are very small in comparison to what many view as full size. Thus the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis solider on with loyal buyers. The Chevy Impala is a pretty long car as well. The new 300C is 197" long too.

I think the basic reason you don't see large Japanese full size cars is it contradicts every companies humble beginings. Honda is the most conservative, they just offered a V-6 10 years ago. Japanese cars still to many equate small, fuel efficient cars.

Incendiary

I dunno, if they can offer large SUVs and pickups and minivans, I don't see why not a fullsize sedan. Anyway, regardless of their non-monetary reasons, they are losing out on a segment I bet they could easily dominate and make profit from.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

It's easy to forget that Honda is a MUCH MUCH smaller company than Toyota. Remember Honda has JUST NOW produced its first truck. Toyota's been at it for what, a decade? It also had a Land Cruiser in the 70s (60s?) whereas Honda came from motorcycles lawnmowers and generators in the 70s.

Honda has a hard enough time keeping up with its existing lines, and the Acura line, let alone significant expansion.

Nissan has been in somewhat of a renewal along with their Infiniti division and they at least have had some backing from THEIR parent, Renault. I'd say Nissan/Infiniti have taken a page out of Chrysler's book - offer stylish or distinctive bang for the buck (Altima, Titan, G35, M, etc.).

But Toyota is just HUGE and as you guys see, it's taken them this long to get CLOSE to getting into the large mainstream sedan business. The new Avalon is pretty amazing.

About fleet sales, I bet there's also reasons Honda doesn't do it and also fleet carriers don't buy them. Ever noticed the rental cars often have 'odd' option combinations on their cars? They're like GM/Ford/Chrysler '2nds' it seems to me - I doubt Honda wants to do that being so careful about their brand. And if they don't want to do that with the cheap prices that '2nds' warrant, then the fleet guys don't want Honda's cars either because they're too expensive. You don't see many Toyota's in rental car companies either.

xioix

you dont need a car as long as the old huge 70s cars, when you can havve good interior space in a smaller package, as they are easier to manauver

toy4two

When I visited Tokyo a few years ago I saw lots of larger cars / fleet cars. Lots of the cabs were CROWN cars with that funky mirror on the hood.

So they do make them, and they use them in fleets, but they don't import them.

mmarshall

You're correct that today's cars are FAR more space-efficient than 30 years ago...and offer almost the same interior space in a much smaller package: and they are indeed more nimble, handling-wise, but they lack the bulk, weight, long overhangs front and rear, tall, high-profile tires, and soft suspension that contribute to ride comfort.

Of course, many people today don't want that.....they want sharp handling and are willing to give up comfort to have it.

Lexusfreak

I agree 1SICK! Like I said earlier in this thread......the Avalon is very close in dimensions (mostly interior space) to the LS 430 so it's hardly a mid sized car.

Lil4X

I certainly have no access to Mr. Honda's boardroom, but let's try out this logic:

1. The largest single market for "full sized" cars in the US is in fleet sales, as noted earlier. If Honda has elected not to pursue those sales, they have immediately eliminated a good share of their "full size" market.
   
   
2. Usable cabin space, the ability to comfortably accommodate five passengers and a fair amount of luggage is now possible in the larger "mid-size" range, although those qualifications remain debatable. The Avalon from Toyota and the Ford 500, the Buick LeSabre and even the smaller Lucerne, among the domestics represent this new packaging ethos well. If you think about it, as mmarshall said, the "full size" cars of the sixties and seventies were big boats with a good deal of passenger space, but in all the wrong places. Styling still dictated form - witness foot-thick doors of mid-sixties GM products, or the stretched fender lines that carried out the "aircraft" theme of the late fifties (remember tailfins?), but contributed nothing to payload space. Today, if you regularly haul six passengers, they'd be more comfortable in a van; If you really need a trunk that big for everyday hauling, buy a pickup.
   
   
3. Buyers looking to accommodate a large family have largely pursued other purchasing options: minivans and SUV's. Thus the overall market for "full-size" 4-door sedans is dwindling as the single “family car” is replaced by several special-purpose vehicles.
   
   
4. Increasing fuel costs in the last few months has limited sales of V8 engines in all segments except those where an acceptable alternative is not available, i.e.: large truck-based SUV's and large-displacement performance cars.
   
   
5. Honda has a long record of success with its current range of products - introduction of a new, incompatible model strictly for the mid-price market in the US isn’t likely to be justified by profits, considering the potential volume of sales.
   
   
6. The RL will sell as a premium line, not a “family sedan”, and given its projected price, it could creep into the realm of profitability – although as a low-volume product it may serve more as a halo than a practical addition to the balance sheet. (Replacing the NSX?)

Just my $.02.

Falcon LS

I hear you. There is a LWB Crown Vic known as the P70, which 6 inches of extra leg room in the rear. In the US they're only sold to fleet/police markets, which is sad really. Over at this end, its available upon demand along with the Grand Marquis GSL, which is the LWB version for the Grand Marquis.

chuckb

I would think honda is pretty strong. remember, they sell not only Honda and Acura cars, but also motorcycles, atvs, scooters, generators, lawnmowers, etc.

My garage has two honda dirtbikes and a honda lawnmower. good stuff. don't worry though, I'm not to fond of there cars. I have two Lex to even things out.


toyota hass made a big boat of a car for years, we just don't get it here

century

UDel

America is the only country that makes large rear drive sedans that are fairly inexpensive. Other countries including Japan make large cars but reserve them for expensive luxury vehicles. It would be very difficult for Honda, Toyota, or Nissan to pull off a large inexpensive car like a Caprice, Impala, Grand Marquis, Crown Victoria, Lesabre etc because it would most likely need to be rear drive with a v-8 to be taken seriously and it would encroach on LS400, RL, and Q45 sales since people could get a large v-8 sedan for much cheaper then those cars from the same company that makes those vehicles. Large American sedans use outdated unsophisticated chasis, suspensions, and engines plus their interiors are pretty cheap and low quality in order to sell for low prices. Most likely Honda or Toyota would have to use crude chasis and engines and cheap materials to sell at competitive prices which would diminish the brand and people would complain about them loosing quality. Also there is not much of a market for them right now especially for younger buyers who want smaller more sophisticated high performance/luxury sedans. The market has changed and GM knows which is why they switched the Impala to front wheel drive and ditched the v-8 for a v-6. An Avalon or Maxima are pretty large now and compete with the new Impala. Unless it is an expensive luxury vehicle like an LS430, A-8, or S500 I doubt you will see a large v-8 rwd sedan coming from Europe or Japan since they consider large size, rwd, v-8 to be soley for high priced luxury vehicles.