Incendiary

Ford's Crown Vic, Chevy's Impala, etc. These are full-size cars with no Japanese competition. What gives? The Impala sold like 23k copies last month. Do Toyota and Honda not think it's worth making an affordable full-size because the US would be the primary market interested?

flipside909

The Avalon is "supposed" to fill in that niche.

Do you realize most Crown Vics are sold to fleet sales for government agencies and rental car agencies, taxi companies and etc? That's the main reason.

Incendiary

But the Avalon is barely larger than the Camry. Same goes for the Maxima. (BTW, are they supposed to compete, being flagships of each respective company?)

I dunno, still seems there's a market. I see a lot of Impalas, if not Crown Vics, being driven by civilians. $25k for an LS430-sized car. Not bad if you need the room.

Incendiary

Just checked toyota.com, and I guess you're right. The new Avalon is 197.2". Previously I think it was more like 191 or something, though, because I remember it being much closer in size to the Camry's 189. Anyway, that makes sense, then. However, I'm still not sure why the other Japanese companies don't have full-size models (or at least in the US). Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, etc. are all giving away a reasonably sized market to the Americans. I guess VW is, too.

BrickHead

The Avalon has always had better backseat room than the Crown Vic. My parents have a Mercury Grand Marquis. The back seat in that car is not nearly as roomy as what one might expect from such a giant. The Avalon's interior volumn puts that car in the 'full-size' catagory. I think the Avalon competes very well against the LeSabre, Impala, and Crown Vic. And the new Avalon has even more room than before.. Detroit's large sedans have relatively huge external dimensions. But when it comes to interior room and comfort, they fall short of the Avalon's standard.

flipside909

But of course.

Lil4X

A few years ago as a Honda owner I discovered that the company actively discourages sales to rental companies and the government. While Detroit has always made "special prices" (deep discounts) for large fleet buyers, Honda won't even enter the bidding.

Why? One very smart marketing move . . .

While Detroit has always thought of the rental companies as providing "demonstrators" for the flying public (the "upscale" demographic they want, although with today's discount airfares, almost any mutt can fly . . . ). By putting their latest products into the hands of expense-account business travelers, they believed they could influence the decision of that person's family car when it came time to buy.

Not so, said Honda - those ex-fleet cars flooding the market artificially depress the value of a used car, accounting for the poor resale values of particularly Chrysler products, but Ford and Chevy as well. Honda took the opposite tack - without having to discount large numbers of cars to compete for the fleet market, they can sell to the public without having to make up losses from their fleet sales. They support their dealer pricing, while keeping large numbers of used cars from returning every year or two to compete with the pre-owned cars on the dealer's lot.

Result? Better prices, happy dealers, and fewer rent-a-wrecks on the street contaminating the brand image. A little convoluted reasoning, but so far, at least, it's worked for them!

Incendiary

Sure, Honda doesn't do fleet sales, but I don't see why that means they can't produce a full-size car... Besides, it'd give them good practice for when they come out with their V8 flagship that slates above the RL.

Lexusfreak

Toyota Avalon is a 'Full Size' car. The Avalon is very close in overall dimensions to the LS 430 actually! Hope your not suggesting the LS is a 'mid-sized' vehicle?

Gojirra99

The question is, will they ever have one ?

Incendiary

One can only hope.

mmarshall

Incendiary has a point here. I'm familiar with the new Avalon...I gave a new XLS a long test-drive a few months ago. The Avalon may have a 197" length but it is far from what I would call "full-size"....even with the additional length it is basically a stretched Camry. And its ride......even the non-Touring version I drove.....while not harsh, is far from what I would call really smooth.

Maybe I am just living too much in the past, but the true full-size cars I grew up with...the Cadillacs, Lincolns, and Imperials...were 225-230" in length, had wheelbases of 125-130", weighed around 5000 lbs, and, believe me, RODE like it. Auto manufacturers today advertise a "smooth ride"....they have NO IDEA what a truly smooth ride is.

GM was the first company to corrupt the term "full-size" in 1977 by downsizing their big cars into what was formerly the compact and mid-sized class yet still calling them "full-size".....Ford and Chrysler followed by 1980. Since then the GM " full-size " cars have been even FURTHER downsized, yet they still stubbornly call them " full-size ".
The first car I ever drove...a compact Plymouth Valiant .....was larger than many of today's " full-size " cars.

So....not surprisingly...........I laugh when I hear Toyota, Buick, Cadillac, and others call their flagships "full-size" cars.
Even the Lincoln Town Car.....one of the largest production cars made today...is mid-sized by early 1970's standards.

Incendiary

And now you're content with your not too smooth riding, not very full size 176" IS300.

This could be its own thread topic, and maybe I'll start a new thread later, but if I were starting a non-luxury car company now, here would be my lineup:

166" hatchback, 2 and 4 doors, MT and AT, 4-banger and turbocharged 4, FWD
178" sedan, coupe, wagon, MT and AT, turbocharged 4 and V6, FWD and AWD
190" sedan, coupe, wagon, MT and AT, turbocharged 4, V6, V8, FWD and AWD
202" sedan, AT, V6 and V8, FWD and AWD
160" roadster convertible, MT and AT, turbocharged 4, RWD

As I expanded, I suppose I'd add SUVs, pickups, and a minivan or two. Safety, reliability, and handling would be the emphases. I think with just those core models listed above, though, and maybe just all in 4-door forms to start with, it would be a solid start.

mmarshall

True....you don't buy an IS primarily for ride comfort...although with the 16" wheels and all-season tires the ride is acceptable by my standards. The 17" low-profile tires were a little harsh.

mmarshall

One other point, though, that is important......today the terms compact, mid-sized, and full-sized are determined by EPA measurments of interior volume, not exterior length or weight like years ago. For example, legally the Prius, by EPA standards, is a mid-size car.