Subaru May Switch to Toyota Hybrid System
05-15-05, 10:50 PM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Subaru May Switch to Toyota Hybrid System
Seems that Toyota's investment in the hybrid technology will pay off quite handsomely. Kudos to them.
GM and DC must be pretty pissed now.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=105644
Subaru May Switch to Toyota Hybrid System
Date Posted 05-13-2005
TOKYO — Subaru is delaying its first gasoline-electric hybrid car, originally due next year, reportedly because it is considering buying hybrid systems directly from Toyota.
Subaru is too small to be able to justify production of its own system and can't sufficiently reduce production costs, according to a report in Japan's Nihon Keizai Shimbun newspaper. Subaru would therefore scrap its own system, and roll out a Toyota-powered car in 2008. In return, Subaru's parent Fuji would supply Toyota with advanced lithium-ion batteries for use in hybrids.
The move also suggests General Motors' rival hybrid system is unsuitable for Subaru. GM has a shareholder stake in Subaru and has recently denied reports it, too, is getting into bed with Toyota on hybrids. GM is jointly developing a hybrid system with DaimlerChrysler, but this is focused initially more on larger vehicles with engine displacements of greater than 4.5 liters.
Subaru's choice could be more to do with timing — Toyota's system is available now, whereas the GM-DaimlerChrysler system is still under development.
Whatever the reason, the hybrid marketplace is starting to resemble the video-format wars of the 1980s. Toyota's system is emerging as the "VHS" of the hybrid powertrain market — and rival systems such as Honda's or GM-DaimlerChrysler's risk becoming the equivalent of "Beta."
What this means to you: Toyota gambled on hybrids years ago with the original Prius. Now it's getting the payback as other automakers sign lucrative license deals. The consumer will have a few hybrid options to choose from, but the Toyota system is breaking away at this point.
GM and DC must be pretty pissed now.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=105644
Subaru May Switch to Toyota Hybrid System
Date Posted 05-13-2005
TOKYO — Subaru is delaying its first gasoline-electric hybrid car, originally due next year, reportedly because it is considering buying hybrid systems directly from Toyota.
Subaru is too small to be able to justify production of its own system and can't sufficiently reduce production costs, according to a report in Japan's Nihon Keizai Shimbun newspaper. Subaru would therefore scrap its own system, and roll out a Toyota-powered car in 2008. In return, Subaru's parent Fuji would supply Toyota with advanced lithium-ion batteries for use in hybrids.
The move also suggests General Motors' rival hybrid system is unsuitable for Subaru. GM has a shareholder stake in Subaru and has recently denied reports it, too, is getting into bed with Toyota on hybrids. GM is jointly developing a hybrid system with DaimlerChrysler, but this is focused initially more on larger vehicles with engine displacements of greater than 4.5 liters.
Subaru's choice could be more to do with timing — Toyota's system is available now, whereas the GM-DaimlerChrysler system is still under development.
Whatever the reason, the hybrid marketplace is starting to resemble the video-format wars of the 1980s. Toyota's system is emerging as the "VHS" of the hybrid powertrain market — and rival systems such as Honda's or GM-DaimlerChrysler's risk becoming the equivalent of "Beta."
What this means to you: Toyota gambled on hybrids years ago with the original Prius. Now it's getting the payback as other automakers sign lucrative license deals. The consumer will have a few hybrid options to choose from, but the Toyota system is breaking away at this point.
Last edited by XeroK00L; 05-15-05 at 10:53 PM.
05-16-05, 04:07 AM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
Thanks, XeroK00L...an interesting story. 
I was not aware of this. Someone asked me just the other day if Subaru had any hybrid plans....I had no answer for them.
However, this story brings up some interesting questions....like how Toyota hybrid systems, which are currently designed around transverse-mounted in-line fours and V6'es, are going to be hooked up to Subaru AWD systems, which are designed for horizontially-opposed " boxer " fours and sixes that are longitudinally ( fore-aft ) mounted. Subaru AWD systems are simpler than some ( not all ) Toyota and Honda AWD systems because those systems require extra bevel gears or chain drives behind the engine and transmission to turn the power around 90 degrees straight-back to the front differential and the drive-shaft going back to the center and rear differentials. In some cases it must be routed 180 degrees first and than another 90. This is why all 5 different Subaru AWD systems are so good and have become so well-known...they don't require all this extra gearing and hardware up front. They just bolt right onto the back of the engine/transmission where the output shaft comes straight back from the flywheel.
Seems to me one of two things will have to happen. Toyota will either have to modify the design of the existing hybrid engines/transmissions they sell to Subaru to adapt to a fore-aft configuration to fit Subaru's AWD systems ( which means at least new mounts and a completely redesigned cooling system among other things), or Subaru will have to buy more complex AWD systems from Toyota that will fit transverse-engines....like the AWD systems on the Matrix and Highlander.
Personally I would rather see the Toyota engines adapted to the Subaru AWD systems. That IMO would be the best of both worlds. Toyota traditionally makes the most durable engines and Subaru traditionally makes the best AWD systems, at least in the $30,000-and-under class.
Of course Subaru could get around this problem by simply not offering an AWD Hybrid, ( doing it in FWD only ) but that would violate its current North American marketing policy of AWD products only. And, either way, they lose the marketing feature of the boxer-engine's low mount and low center of gravity for handling.....one thing, among others, that helps makes the Outback handle so much better than most SUV's. But they obviously gain the durability of the Toyota engine....the Subaru 2.5L four in particular has had a history of head-gasket problems up to just the last couple of years..
I was not aware of this. Someone asked me just the other day if Subaru had any hybrid plans....I had no answer for them.However, this story brings up some interesting questions....like how Toyota hybrid systems, which are currently designed around transverse-mounted in-line fours and V6'es, are going to be hooked up to Subaru AWD systems, which are designed for horizontially-opposed " boxer " fours and sixes that are longitudinally ( fore-aft ) mounted. Subaru AWD systems are simpler than some ( not all ) Toyota and Honda AWD systems because those systems require extra bevel gears or chain drives behind the engine and transmission to turn the power around 90 degrees straight-back to the front differential and the drive-shaft going back to the center and rear differentials. In some cases it must be routed 180 degrees first and than another 90. This is why all 5 different Subaru AWD systems are so good and have become so well-known...they don't require all this extra gearing and hardware up front. They just bolt right onto the back of the engine/transmission where the output shaft comes straight back from the flywheel.
Seems to me one of two things will have to happen. Toyota will either have to modify the design of the existing hybrid engines/transmissions they sell to Subaru to adapt to a fore-aft configuration to fit Subaru's AWD systems ( which means at least new mounts and a completely redesigned cooling system among other things), or Subaru will have to buy more complex AWD systems from Toyota that will fit transverse-engines....like the AWD systems on the Matrix and Highlander.
Personally I would rather see the Toyota engines adapted to the Subaru AWD systems. That IMO would be the best of both worlds. Toyota traditionally makes the most durable engines and Subaru traditionally makes the best AWD systems, at least in the $30,000-and-under class.
Of course Subaru could get around this problem by simply not offering an AWD Hybrid, ( doing it in FWD only ) but that would violate its current North American marketing policy of AWD products only. And, either way, they lose the marketing feature of the boxer-engine's low mount and low center of gravity for handling.....one thing, among others, that helps makes the Outback handle so much better than most SUV's. But they obviously gain the durability of the Toyota engine....the Subaru 2.5L four in particular has had a history of head-gasket problems up to just the last couple of years..
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-16-05 at 04:26 AM.
05-16-05, 07:57 AM
#4
Originally Posted by enigma354
Hopefully a Hybrid Subaru Impreza will be a result of this....
It'd be cool to see it in a WRX/STi form...but it wouldn't make all too much sense huh?
05-16-05, 08:01 AM
#5
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by XeroK00L
Seems that Toyota's investment in the hybrid technology will pay off quite handsomely. Kudos to them.
GM and DC must be pretty pissed now.
[Whatever the reason, the hybrid marketplace is starting to resemble the video-format wars of the 1980s. Toyota's system is emerging as the "VHS" of the hybrid powertrain market — and rival systems such as Honda's or GM-DaimlerChrysler's risk becoming the equivalent of "Beta."
GM and DC must be pretty pissed now.
[Whatever the reason, the hybrid marketplace is starting to resemble the video-format wars of the 1980s. Toyota's system is emerging as the "VHS" of the hybrid powertrain market — and rival systems such as Honda's or GM-DaimlerChrysler's risk becoming the equivalent of "Beta."
good analogy
What this means to you: Toyota gambled on hybrids years ago with the original Prius. Now it's getting the payback as other automakers sign lucrative license deals. The consumer will have a few hybrid options to choose from, but the Toyota system is breaking away at this point.
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