View Poll Results: Should Toyota create a new upscale Sport brand?
Hell yes, sign me up. I'd take a lineup of manual IS driving coupe/sedans anyday.
16
38.10%
No, Lexus is Lexus and doing a good job being Lexus.They are selling and are sporty enough.
13
30.95%
If I truly want sport, I'll jump brands, that is what the competiton is for.
9
21.43%
Other Reason
4
9.52%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll
1SICKTHOUGHT!! Should Toyota/Lexus create ANOTHER division, a SPORT brand?
06-03-05, 02:24 PM
#16
Originally Posted by mmarshall
I'm not going to take sides on this issue ( yet ) because I am undecided.....there is a strong case for both sides here.
One issue that is related to this I WILL bring up, though........... and this hits MUCH closer to home here:
Suppose, as Mike suggests, Toyota (or Lexus) WERE to introduce a new sport-oriented division (especially one with a totally different name, not just an in-house AMG, M-Motorsport, S, V, A-Spec, SS, SVT, etc.... like some other companies. What then would happen to our Club Lexus forum as some of the present CL members gradually bought into the new "Sport " division? Would CL remain one forum, split into two, or just expand into a Club Lexus and Club-whatever the new division name would be? Where would Dave end up, and who would be the new Administator if we needed one? How many of our moderators would stay on and how many would join a possible new forum? Who would take their places? Would there be sponsors for a new forum? If Lexus creates a new division without a new name, a partial solution to the problem might be to have Luxury Lexus and Sport-Lexus sub-forums under a CL master forum..
I bring these questions up not just to stir the pot but to illustrate that if Lexus were to split into two different-named divisions, we might have to face some of these questions. Scion's introduction did not bring these questions up, but, of course, Scion was a separate new down-market division that did not directly affect Lexus......or this forum.
One issue that is related to this I WILL bring up, though........... and this hits MUCH closer to home here:
Suppose, as Mike suggests, Toyota (or Lexus) WERE to introduce a new sport-oriented division (especially one with a totally different name, not just an in-house AMG, M-Motorsport, S, V, A-Spec, SS, SVT, etc.... like some other companies. What then would happen to our Club Lexus forum as some of the present CL members gradually bought into the new "Sport " division? Would CL remain one forum, split into two, or just expand into a Club Lexus and Club-whatever the new division name would be? Where would Dave end up, and who would be the new Administator if we needed one? How many of our moderators would stay on and how many would join a possible new forum? Who would take their places? Would there be sponsors for a new forum? If Lexus creates a new division without a new name, a partial solution to the problem might be to have Luxury Lexus and Sport-Lexus sub-forums under a CL master forum..
I bring these questions up not just to stir the pot but to illustrate that if Lexus were to split into two different-named divisions, we might have to face some of these questions. Scion's introduction did not bring these questions up, but, of course, Scion was a separate new down-market division that did not directly affect Lexus......or this forum.
Along a similar thought. Do you think Lexus as an independent manufacturer could survive at the same level they are today without Toyota's financial power? I know they make good cars and people will buy, but could they make enough revenue themselves to commit the same level of R&D and quality ni future cars without having to majorly raise their product prices? I think most would agree that without the money Toyota puts into R&D the level of quality would not be where it is today.
06-03-05, 08:24 PM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
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CL is already split between those with practical Lexuses, who are not interested in really sporty performance, and those who want their car to be either somewhat sporty, or REALLY sporty. Typically the first group are those with LS, GX, LX, RX, newer SC, and ES models. The latter group typically has older SC, GS, and IS models and get them seriously modified to make them handle well and go really fast. So we already have two pretty different mindsets and customers.
Prior to the IS, most people looking to make a Lexus sporty have bought a used one, so they may never walk into a Lexus dealer to buy one. But Lexus showed with the IS in particular, that they CAN get customers who WANT a genuinely sporty car.
But Mercedes already crosses this divide nicely, in a subtle way within the MB line and in a not subtle way with the AMG models. They've more recently blurred the line more because you can get AMG looks packages without the engines. So even though MB is thought of as a luxury vehicle maker, many know they make some seriously sporty cars. I think Lexus should go in EXACTLY this direction.
I don't think Lexus should make a new division, say to compete with the likes of Porshce directly - the volumes really are small but Porsche has had decades to learn how to do it profitably, but even they almost went under at one point. Now Porsche is on a role though, but still, I doubt Lexus would be interested in such small volumes vs. the cost of making a whole separate brand. I think, like MB, they should make sport models under Lexus and Toyota or maybe forget Toyota and do it in Scion instead although that might blow the target price points.
Prior to the IS, most people looking to make a Lexus sporty have bought a used one, so they may never walk into a Lexus dealer to buy one. But Lexus showed with the IS in particular, that they CAN get customers who WANT a genuinely sporty car.
But Mercedes already crosses this divide nicely, in a subtle way within the MB line and in a not subtle way with the AMG models. They've more recently blurred the line more because you can get AMG looks packages without the engines. So even though MB is thought of as a luxury vehicle maker, many know they make some seriously sporty cars. I think Lexus should go in EXACTLY this direction.
I don't think Lexus should make a new division, say to compete with the likes of Porshce directly - the volumes really are small but Porsche has had decades to learn how to do it profitably, but even they almost went under at one point. Now Porsche is on a role though, but still, I doubt Lexus would be interested in such small volumes vs. the cost of making a whole separate brand. I think, like MB, they should make sport models under Lexus and Toyota or maybe forget Toyota and do it in Scion instead although that might blow the target price points.
06-04-05, 07:35 AM
#18
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Great debate topic. I think Toyota should create "R" divisions for all three divisions. So Toyota, Lexus and Scion would each have their own perfromance products. I don't know if this should be Lexus-R or Lexus RRD (as in Lexus Racing Development -- a branch of TRD.) And yes, that assumes a Scion (SRD). Net-net, no new brand, but enhanced performance divisions.
06-04-05, 08:16 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
CL is already split between those with practical Lexuses, who are not interested in really sporty performance, and those who want their car to be either somewhat sporty, or REALLY sporty. Typically the first group are those with LS, GX, LX, RX, newer SC, and ES models. The latter group typically has older SC, GS, and IS models and get them seriously modified to make them handle well and go really fast. So we already have two pretty different mindsets and customers.
.
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06-04-05, 01:51 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by AmethySC
L.A. during the weekend isn't bad at all . . . if you avoid the freeways going to the games.
06-05-05, 02:19 PM
#22
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I honestly think that it is about time that Toyota comes back into the “sport-games”. The competition has been German cars and they have been sweeping the market. Nobody wants to buy a 22-25K Celica for mere performance when you could just get a Subaru WRX for the same price. The IS has a very small interior and lags performance and you can the same or even more in a BMW 3 series. The SC series has been all about looks and not performance after the demise of the 300/400 series. The GS series has been more about looks then it has been about performance. The MR2 has been getting outshined by most other sports cars with the same price tag. Toyota has more money than most other car companies and is ruling sales in America and is coming up for global domination in a few years. I know that Toyota has it takes to bang-out some amazing cars and I have no clue why they are not even ATTEMPTING to do that. Also, what is up with Toyota and not offering manual transmissions in the “sporty” type of cars? With the reliability and performance they put down on the TT-Supra, it is still a huge bargain now-a-days. Toyota needs to grow some bigger ***** and come out with something that will shock the market. I have been waiting for something like that from Toyota in a long time. They need to come out with something RWD, 320+hp, mad torque, amazing reliability, good pricing, great handling, interior to die for, and exterior that will turn heads. Please Toyota, bring the sports segment back and you will dominate more than you do now. 
Just my two cents.
- Nizhu
Just my two cents.- Nizhu
02-16-07, 06:23 AM
#23
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Well..
I'd like to hope Subaru and Toyota continue their talks when that law passes in Japan that allows one car company to have like 60% of the market. Some one correct me I know thats wrong! AWD + Turbo in a Toyota would be great! To have Toyota quality in a Subaru would be great. I just want them to take Subys AWD and Turbos.. drop that into a Celica and even the Supra!
I don't think they should have another company. I think Toyota should put out the sport models, thus TRD! Lexus should in my mind stay luxory with some sport. IE the IS and GS, plus they have the F line. You throw too many car companies under one parent and you fall into the pitfall of becoming another GM. And we certainly don't want any of that. Its fine as is.
I'd like to hope Subaru and Toyota continue their talks when that law passes in Japan that allows one car company to have like 60% of the market. Some one correct me I know thats wrong! AWD + Turbo in a Toyota would be great! To have Toyota quality in a Subaru would be great. I just want them to take Subys AWD and Turbos.. drop that into a Celica and even the Supra!
I don't think they should have another company. I think Toyota should put out the sport models, thus TRD! Lexus should in my mind stay luxory with some sport. IE the IS and GS, plus they have the F line. You throw too many car companies under one parent and you fall into the pitfall of becoming another GM. And we certainly don't want any of that. Its fine as is.
02-16-07, 09:01 AM
#24
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You'll have a huge image perception problem.
Toyota is not highly regarded in motorsports, from the WRC cheating, to a direct lack of competitive offerings (spawned by the "appliance syndrome"), many potential cross shoppers would not even place a Toyota product on the list. Outside of drag racing, I rarely see Supras. The few I do see have never proven to be a top tier competitor (side effect of the hype, car cost, and the market tendency of drag racing).
When they are willing to set aside a serious amount of cash and resources to create an independent brand (with 0 oversight from the parent company) then they would be able to work fast enough to get a small foot in the door.
But given the already cemented major players in this arena, you can NOT have any possible hamstringing of ideas. Also, hybrids... not the way to go, it would serve to irritate driving enthusiasts if they placed these systems in a serious contendor.
To go after the real AMG's, the F division is a good step in that direction. Sledgehammer'd luxo boats are pretty sweet, the feeling of a SL/S 65 is... bliss when your just squished against the seatback, and could fit with Lexus luxury and daily driving. BMW's M is too rounded out performance wise. You'll need an actual clutch hitting the flywheel in order to even attempt going after the M's. And then you'll need to take the cheapest model, place performance and dynamics first, and everything else secondary. A racing pedigree for the model would help as well.
The LFA may be too little, too late.
The entire F division would then be like an Asian version of Aston Martin.
The cancellation of the Supra was a deathknell for Toyota performance in general, it removed any inroads that had been built ever since the Celica's inception.
Assuming that's all peachy keen, if people wanted a raw edge different from the Euro breds, or if modifications are in the future, domestics have a way bigger upper hand, and they'll have an even bigger one in the future ala the RWD demand is back, and it's a domestic forte.
Effectively the problem boils down to this:
Loyalties are already tied down, the folks that race quite often don't care about luxury in a sports car, and Toyota shot themselves in the foot by axeing heritage.
Toyota is not highly regarded in motorsports, from the WRC cheating, to a direct lack of competitive offerings (spawned by the "appliance syndrome"), many potential cross shoppers would not even place a Toyota product on the list. Outside of drag racing, I rarely see Supras. The few I do see have never proven to be a top tier competitor (side effect of the hype, car cost, and the market tendency of drag racing).
When they are willing to set aside a serious amount of cash and resources to create an independent brand (with 0 oversight from the parent company) then they would be able to work fast enough to get a small foot in the door.
But given the already cemented major players in this arena, you can NOT have any possible hamstringing of ideas. Also, hybrids... not the way to go, it would serve to irritate driving enthusiasts if they placed these systems in a serious contendor.
To go after the real AMG's, the F division is a good step in that direction. Sledgehammer'd luxo boats are pretty sweet, the feeling of a SL/S 65 is... bliss when your just squished against the seatback, and could fit with Lexus luxury and daily driving. BMW's M is too rounded out performance wise. You'll need an actual clutch hitting the flywheel in order to even attempt going after the M's. And then you'll need to take the cheapest model, place performance and dynamics first, and everything else secondary. A racing pedigree for the model would help as well.
The LFA may be too little, too late.
The entire F division would then be like an Asian version of Aston Martin.
The cancellation of the Supra was a deathknell for Toyota performance in general, it removed any inroads that had been built ever since the Celica's inception.
Assuming that's all peachy keen, if people wanted a raw edge different from the Euro breds, or if modifications are in the future, domestics have a way bigger upper hand, and they'll have an even bigger one in the future ala the RWD demand is back, and it's a domestic forte.
Effectively the problem boils down to this:
Loyalties are already tied down, the folks that race quite often don't care about luxury in a sports car, and Toyota shot themselves in the foot by axeing heritage.
02-16-07, 10:19 AM
#25
Lexus need to concentrate on its soon to be unleashed "F" divison, and build a repuation for that line before they think about creating another sport division. Audi did this with the S line... developed a great reputation amoung enthusiasts, then later created the RS line. The Audi RS4 is a blast to drive by the way Lets see how this IS-F does. Perhaps it may still suffer from the famous Lexus loosey goosiness
Lets see how this IS-F does. Perhaps it may still suffer from the famous Lexus loosey goosiness
02-16-07, 10:31 AM
#26
Lexus should part company with Toyota. Right now it is a Toyota with a different nameplate. Consequently, Toyota has a strangle hold on them.
The Lexus IS-F will be a viewed as a sporty car from a Luxury family sedan company. The Lexus image needs to change to woo BMW and MB buyers. They build a reliable car, but are slow to adopt change at the same rapid rate as their competitors.
Simply building a fast car on a whim will not change any mindsets.
However, it is very costly to start another company. But without doing so, it will take decades to convince anyone about anything Lexus is doing. Their main consumer will be the family sedan crowd.
The Lexus IS-F will be a viewed as a sporty car from a Luxury family sedan company. The Lexus image needs to change to woo BMW and MB buyers. They build a reliable car, but are slow to adopt change at the same rapid rate as their competitors.
Simply building a fast car on a whim will not change any mindsets.
However, it is very costly to start another company. But without doing so, it will take decades to convince anyone about anything Lexus is doing. Their main consumer will be the family sedan crowd.
02-16-07, 11:52 AM
#27
I watched that youtube vid of the IS-F going around the famous ring, and it does not look as controlled as the M cars going around the ring. Too much bounce in the suspension(not as controlled), and it does not seem to hug the corners in the same fashion as the Bimmers. I can post comparison vids for you guys to judge
02-16-07, 05:40 PM
#28
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You'll have a huge image perception problem.
Toyota is not highly regarded in motorsports, from the WRC cheating, to a direct lack of competitive offerings (spawned by the "appliance syndrome"), many potential cross shoppers would not even place a Toyota product on the list. Outside of drag racing, I rarely see Supras. The few I do see have never proven to be a top tier competitor (side effect of the hype, car cost, and the market tendency of drag racing).
Toyota is not highly regarded in motorsports, from the WRC cheating, to a direct lack of competitive offerings (spawned by the "appliance syndrome"), many potential cross shoppers would not even place a Toyota product on the list. Outside of drag racing, I rarely see Supras. The few I do see have never proven to be a top tier competitor (side effect of the hype, car cost, and the market tendency of drag racing).
p.s. Is the fact that Toyota....scratch that, TTE, were caught ONCE cheating in WRC the only thing you guys know about toyota motorsports history?
I watched that youtube vid of the IS-F going around the famous ring, and it does not look as controlled as the M cars going around the ring. Too much bounce in the suspension(not as controlled), and it does not seem to hug the corners in the same fashion as the Bimmers. I can post comparison vids for you guys to judge
02-16-07, 06:44 PM
#29
That's from an american perspective.....come to think of it, maybe thats why you guys dont get cars like the Vitz (yaris) RS 1.5 turbo, Mark X Blit Supercharged, Caldina GT-4 etc...
p.s. Is the fact that Toyota....scratch that, TTE, were caught ONCE cheating in WRC the only thing you guys know about toyota motorsports history?
Please do.
p.s. Is the fact that Toyota....scratch that, TTE, were caught ONCE cheating in WRC the only thing you guys know about toyota motorsports history?
Please do.
Compare the lighter weight IS-F and the heavy weight "pig" M6... Watch how both cars corner.IS-F on the ring
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...deoID=20108483
BMW M6 on the ring
http://bilder.autobild.de/video/200412_bmw_m6_l.avi
Thoughts???
Last edited by DASHOCKER; 02-16-07 at 06:49 PM.
02-17-07, 12:14 AM
#30
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The M6 SEEMS to have more body roll
The IS SEEMS like it has more suspension travel over the bumpy sections (which is a good thing), which is probably why the 6 sometimes appears more composed.
The M6 engine note is sweeeeeeeeeeeeettt!!!!!
The IS SEEMS like it has more suspension travel over the bumpy sections (which is a good thing), which is probably why the 6 sometimes appears more composed.
The M6 engine note is sweeeeeeeeeeeeettt!!!!!