View Poll Results: Should Toyota create a new upscale Sport brand?
Hell yes, sign me up. I'd take a lineup of manual IS driving coupe/sedans anyday.
16
38.10%
No, Lexus is Lexus and doing a good job being Lexus.They are selling and are sporty enough.
13
30.95%
If I truly want sport, I'll jump brands, that is what the competiton is for.
9
21.43%
Other Reason
4
9.52%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll
1SICKTHOUGHT!! Should Toyota/Lexus create ANOTHER division, a SPORT brand?
02-17-07, 12:48 AM
#31
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Not sure if this has been posted, but I like the idea of the Toyota FT-HS concept. It gets them back into the sport market, and with something fresh because of the hybrid powertain Should be interesting to see how it evolves.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=118933
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=118933
02-17-07, 01:07 AM
#32
No. It would be counter productive from an operations point of view.
They should expand F and really make a ****ing Serious.
Ditch the 8 speed automatic and work on a 6 speed semi-automatic so raw that it rapes little boys whenever it upshifts and terrorizes African countries during downshifts.
Lose the wannabe stacked exhausts and run straight pipes that resound like the hammer of Thor being smashed upon the skulls of a thousand elephants. And maybe make the car sound a lot more "gurgly" on low revs and a lot more "ferrari" on higher revs.
I think looks-wise, they have the right idea with aesthetics. Who cares if most people think the car looks overriced and ugly. **** them, **** you too. I'm here to play ball with my 430hp so get out of my way. Graaahhh!! The IS-F looks mad as hell, I love it, that's what F embodies.
Also F-brand should be literally on the edge of technology. If you're not bleeding, it's not advanced enough. We're talking about carbon brakes, carbon hoods, magnesium composite wheels --- mmmm I have a hardon --- and even techno-gizmo's like LED lights, harddrive based satnav, things like that.
This F-branded cars should be the beefiest of the beefiest, and they should be ultra raw, yet ultra refined like a Lexus, that's what F needs to be. I can't wait until there is an IS-F to touch in person and to run it through the tests, I have lots of hopes for this car (revision A, it'll suck, but the question is: how much?).
They should expand F and really make a ****ing Serious.
Ditch the 8 speed automatic and work on a 6 speed semi-automatic so raw that it rapes little boys whenever it upshifts and terrorizes African countries during downshifts.
Lose the wannabe stacked exhausts and run straight pipes that resound like the hammer of Thor being smashed upon the skulls of a thousand elephants. And maybe make the car sound a lot more "gurgly" on low revs and a lot more "ferrari" on higher revs.
I think looks-wise, they have the right idea with aesthetics. Who cares if most people think the car looks overriced and ugly. **** them, **** you too. I'm here to play ball with my 430hp so get out of my way. Graaahhh!! The IS-F looks mad as hell, I love it, that's what F embodies.
Also F-brand should be literally on the edge of technology. If you're not bleeding, it's not advanced enough. We're talking about carbon brakes, carbon hoods, magnesium composite wheels --- mmmm I have a hardon --- and even techno-gizmo's like LED lights, harddrive based satnav, things like that.
This F-branded cars should be the beefiest of the beefiest, and they should be ultra raw, yet ultra refined like a Lexus, that's what F needs to be. I can't wait until there is an IS-F to touch in person and to run it through the tests, I have lots of hopes for this car (revision A, it'll suck, but the question is: how much?).
02-17-07, 03:49 AM
#33
Mike, great ideas 
I think that Toyota has made enough money in recent years that they should be fine taking bolder moves (or maybe they think the F cars are already hardcore enough?). If they want to be serious about sports cars, they need a separate brand. Honestly, when I think of Toyota I think "reliability", "easy to drive", "quality". Even with the Camry SE V6 and [gasp] Rav-4 V6 doing 0-60 just above 6 sec., I still think of them as "fast Toyotas" not "sporty Toyotas".
But com'mon, OLYMPUS?
Probably a good name for a sports drink or something. They should just create a brand called "SUPRA", as it is the only word associated with Toyota that's anything sporty now.
I think that Toyota has made enough money in recent years that they should be fine taking bolder moves (or maybe they think the F cars are already hardcore enough?). If they want to be serious about sports cars, they need a separate brand. Honestly, when I think of Toyota I think "reliability", "easy to drive", "quality". Even with the Camry SE V6 and [gasp] Rav-4 V6 doing 0-60 just above 6 sec., I still think of them as "fast Toyotas" not "sporty Toyotas".
But com'mon, OLYMPUS?
Probably a good name for a sports drink or something. They should just create a brand called "SUPRA", as it is the only word associated with Toyota that's anything sporty now.
10-04-10, 09:51 AM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well this had me thinking the last 3 nights. Toyota has proven it can build sports/sporty cars but currently, they don't. The MR2 and Celica are discontinued. Lexus has proven it can as well with the 1SC, IS and GS. Sporty coupes/sedans with the IS being the most hardcore Lexus.
Sadly, Camry, SUV, LS and luxury/quality OVERSHADOW any effort as of late Toyota/Lexus makes when it comes time to make a sporty car. And they have made some mistakes as well.
1. The MR-2 was too expensive. No larger engine option.
2. The Celica styling is very controversial and expensive.
3. The IS 300 did not debute with the manual, you had to wait a year for it.
4. The SC and GS are sporty but more a GT than all out sports cars/sedans.
5. They gave up on the Supra.
The last gen Supra is pretty much the only Toyota of recent memory STOCK, that really showed Toyota can make sports cars with the best of them. The last MR-2 was midengine and RWD but did not sell. The last Celica could be had with AWD (All-Trac) and 200hp but sold in very small numbers. The market and timing was off then, even exotics did not sell in the late 80s and early/mid 90s.
Toyota got hip to the game that the name "Toyota" just didn't hit it with consumers when it came to fun. So they created "SCION" to appeal to youth. And its been a TREMENDOUS hit, exceeding all expecations not just with sales but with the enthusiasm of its owners. It shows that a different brand/marketing can make a car "fun". If you have driven a Xa or Xb, they are as fun to drive as riding a 1 legged donkey. The Tc does change this some.
Onto Lexus.
Lexus has clearly established itself as the best selling and best quality brand in America for sometime now. Its best selling cars are ones that mix luxury and comfort and prestige, the ES and RX. The LS and SC sell well for their price and segment but are not a hit with enthusiasts, as they are not sporty compared to the competition. The LF-A shows a Lexus sports car, but wil the name" Lexus" put off potential buyers who think "luxury" when they think "Lexus" not sport? This is a SERIOUS issue Lexus has to deal with. Even with the next IS 250/350, will people flock to it b/c its a Lexus only, and not b/c its a sports sedan? Lexus also is a VICTIM of its own success. B/C people EXPECT the luxury and quiet and ride of a LEXUS. So for a car to be loud and ride harsher etc, well, to people, its NOT a Lexus.
With this in mind, should Toyota, create a SPORT brand, really make Lexus hardcore LUXURY and then give this new brand HARDCORE sport? From the start with the marketing and the cars, create a brand that offers manual cars, sports coupes and sedans? No SUVs, a sport wagon. Toyota does seem to slap quality and luxury into everything but instead of wood, how about carbon fiber/all aluminum interiors? Bascially how the IS and ES are total opposites currently.
People will buy b/c its made by Toyota (like Scion) and since its starting from scratch, they really can give themselves the chance to be a SPORT brand.
Now the business case, well, sports cars/sedans sell in much smaller numbers than luxury sedans. Also, it will cost billions to create a new dealer network. But then Toyota can KEEP buyers from Scion or Toyota who jump to BMW b/c of the IMAGE and the sport.
If Lexus is going to get serious in Europe, they not only have to offer diesals (why no diesal GS with the new GS?) but they have to get SPORTIER. The reviews of the new GS in Europe have been average at best. They HATE the SC with a passion. They RESPECT the LS for what it is, all out luxury and quality.
The Europeans do LOVE the IS 200/300 b/c its the "Anti Lexus" its sporty as hell, small, swift and the interior looks like no other. On top of that its the top quality car in Europe. The only thing lacking is some prestige and panache Lexus does not have there like it has here.
Imagine a new Toyota Brand, called "Olympus" that is basically a brand of IS 300s small to large. Slap in the LF-A and COUPE versions of the sedans, and its an opportunity Toyota needs to look at.
Now u maybe saying to yourself "has SICK lost it"? No, not at all. But as the time approaches for my old GS replacement, I am faced with the dilimna do I mod again? And it looks GREAT when we post pics of the product but it takes tons of time and money to;
1. Order parts
2. Install parts
3. Look for parts
4. Worry about the warrenty
5. Take the car to test to see if there are gains in performance with what was added (well shoot, I do). Like Dyno, track etc etc.
This is what makes Porsche (even though no sedan) and the M3/M5 and others so attractive. Stock, they perform BRILLANTLY. You don't HAVE to mod but you can. The starting point is more advanced.
As of right now, Lexus is becoming a jack of all trades. You have full blown luxury (LS/ES) some fun (SC/GS), full sport (IS) and SUVs (RX/GX/LX). Now we are adding HYBRIDS to the equation. If you notice in the luxury segment, the brand leaders have a one way image. It can lead to confusion, which you don't want in this segement.
1. BMW-you think sport
2. Benz-you think Luxury
3. Audi-you think AWD (Audi is HUGE in Europe, that is why I included).
If Lexus can lead in technology and engineering and creating new segments, why can't they build a high-performance factory car? Why not? Its not like the company doesn't have the talent. Its not like they have bad mangagment or marketing. Surely they have the money?
Sadly, Camry, SUV, LS and luxury/quality OVERSHADOW any effort as of late Toyota/Lexus makes when it comes time to make a sporty car. And they have made some mistakes as well.
1. The MR-2 was too expensive. No larger engine option.
2. The Celica styling is very controversial and expensive.
3. The IS 300 did not debute with the manual, you had to wait a year for it.
4. The SC and GS are sporty but more a GT than all out sports cars/sedans.
5. They gave up on the Supra.
The last gen Supra is pretty much the only Toyota of recent memory STOCK, that really showed Toyota can make sports cars with the best of them. The last MR-2 was midengine and RWD but did not sell. The last Celica could be had with AWD (All-Trac) and 200hp but sold in very small numbers. The market and timing was off then, even exotics did not sell in the late 80s and early/mid 90s.
Toyota got hip to the game that the name "Toyota" just didn't hit it with consumers when it came to fun. So they created "SCION" to appeal to youth. And its been a TREMENDOUS hit, exceeding all expecations not just with sales but with the enthusiasm of its owners. It shows that a different brand/marketing can make a car "fun". If you have driven a Xa or Xb, they are as fun to drive as riding a 1 legged donkey. The Tc does change this some.
Onto Lexus.
Lexus has clearly established itself as the best selling and best quality brand in America for sometime now. Its best selling cars are ones that mix luxury and comfort and prestige, the ES and RX. The LS and SC sell well for their price and segment but are not a hit with enthusiasts, as they are not sporty compared to the competition. The LF-A shows a Lexus sports car, but wil the name" Lexus" put off potential buyers who think "luxury" when they think "Lexus" not sport? This is a SERIOUS issue Lexus has to deal with. Even with the next IS 250/350, will people flock to it b/c its a Lexus only, and not b/c its a sports sedan? Lexus also is a VICTIM of its own success. B/C people EXPECT the luxury and quiet and ride of a LEXUS. So for a car to be loud and ride harsher etc, well, to people, its NOT a Lexus.
With this in mind, should Toyota, create a SPORT brand, really make Lexus hardcore LUXURY and then give this new brand HARDCORE sport? From the start with the marketing and the cars, create a brand that offers manual cars, sports coupes and sedans? No SUVs, a sport wagon. Toyota does seem to slap quality and luxury into everything but instead of wood, how about carbon fiber/all aluminum interiors? Bascially how the IS and ES are total opposites currently.
People will buy b/c its made by Toyota (like Scion) and since its starting from scratch, they really can give themselves the chance to be a SPORT brand.
Now the business case, well, sports cars/sedans sell in much smaller numbers than luxury sedans. Also, it will cost billions to create a new dealer network. But then Toyota can KEEP buyers from Scion or Toyota who jump to BMW b/c of the IMAGE and the sport.
If Lexus is going to get serious in Europe, they not only have to offer diesals (why no diesal GS with the new GS?) but they have to get SPORTIER. The reviews of the new GS in Europe have been average at best. They HATE the SC with a passion. They RESPECT the LS for what it is, all out luxury and quality.
The Europeans do LOVE the IS 200/300 b/c its the "Anti Lexus" its sporty as hell, small, swift and the interior looks like no other. On top of that its the top quality car in Europe. The only thing lacking is some prestige and panache Lexus does not have there like it has here.
Imagine a new Toyota Brand, called "Olympus" that is basically a brand of IS 300s small to large. Slap in the LF-A and COUPE versions of the sedans, and its an opportunity Toyota needs to look at.
Now u maybe saying to yourself "has SICK lost it"? No, not at all. But as the time approaches for my old GS replacement, I am faced with the dilimna do I mod again? And it looks GREAT when we post pics of the product but it takes tons of time and money to;
1. Order parts
2. Install parts
3. Look for parts
4. Worry about the warrenty
5. Take the car to test to see if there are gains in performance with what was added (well shoot, I do). Like Dyno, track etc etc.
This is what makes Porsche (even though no sedan) and the M3/M5 and others so attractive. Stock, they perform BRILLANTLY. You don't HAVE to mod but you can. The starting point is more advanced.
As of right now, Lexus is becoming a jack of all trades. You have full blown luxury (LS/ES) some fun (SC/GS), full sport (IS) and SUVs (RX/GX/LX). Now we are adding HYBRIDS to the equation. If you notice in the luxury segment, the brand leaders have a one way image. It can lead to confusion, which you don't want in this segement.
1. BMW-you think sport
2. Benz-you think Luxury
3. Audi-you think AWD (Audi is HUGE in Europe, that is why I included).
If Lexus can lead in technology and engineering and creating new segments, why can't they build a high-performance factory car? Why not? Its not like the company doesn't have the talent. Its not like they have bad mangagment or marketing. Surely they have the money?
-Scion now isn't selling
-Toyota still has nothing sporty
-Lexus debuted F-sport parts and now an F-sport package
-IS F debuted
-LS sport debuted
-LFA have debuted
-CT sport hatch is coming
-quality took a hit
-image took a hit
5 years ago I stated that many will have trouble perceiving Lexus to be sporty b/c the LS/ES/RX still dominate the brands image. This is still true even as Lexus has provided more sport.
I also stated that the LFA would be a tough sell to people who simply cannot get past the name Lexus. This has held true though the car seems to have sold.
In initial reviews the CT is getting thrashed even though Lexus "said" they put a lot of effort into sport. TO me the powerplant is to meager. Maybe they should have just made it luxury and skipped sport.
Lexus is being pulled in THREE different directions and it worries me
-hybrids
-sport
-traditional Lexus luxury
Can they balance all 3? What is going on with the brand?
Do people REALLY want a sportier Lexus?
10-04-10, 10:25 AM
#36
Good post.
As to your last point, I think the brand is finally diversifying...not necessarily changing their strategy.
I doubt that products like the ES, RX, and LS will ever abandon their core audiences but there is (and always has been) a place for Lexus to "up the ante" with diversification among product lines. You want a hybrid LS? Ok, got it. Sporty? Got one of those. Luxurious? Got plenty - long and short wheelbase to choose from!
I see the GS following the same mantra of something for everyone - hybrid, F Sport, GSF, and standard. IS will always be a sporty product but again, there is diversification here too - hybrid, F sport, F, AWD, etc.
I don't worry that we are losing the "old Lexus" here, but rather see it as the brand evolving. At the core, it's still a Lexus but now you can have it exactly how you want - green, sporty, luxurious, super-sporty, etc.
As to your last point, I think the brand is finally diversifying...not necessarily changing their strategy.
I doubt that products like the ES, RX, and LS will ever abandon their core audiences but there is (and always has been) a place for Lexus to "up the ante" with diversification among product lines. You want a hybrid LS? Ok, got it. Sporty? Got one of those. Luxurious? Got plenty - long and short wheelbase to choose from!
I see the GS following the same mantra of something for everyone - hybrid, F Sport, GSF, and standard. IS will always be a sporty product but again, there is diversification here too - hybrid, F sport, F, AWD, etc.
I don't worry that we are losing the "old Lexus" here, but rather see it as the brand evolving. At the core, it's still a Lexus but now you can have it exactly how you want - green, sporty, luxurious, super-sporty, etc.
10-04-10, 01:38 PM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
IMO opinion, Lexus can balance hybrids, sport and luxury given that the brand is well established as a premium brand (because all of the 3 attributes tend to be expensive if done well).
10-04-10, 02:58 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
They've combined the 3. Not only can they challenge in all 3 but can make all 3 into one. On top of that they're already the leader in Hybrid. Sport isn't what sold Lexus, but adding sport will help sell MORE Lexus. Hybrid did this, and will continue to do this. As long as they keep up and offer refreshing vehicles they won't have a problem. The CT needs a 2-door option in my opinion and Europe will love it even more. A new GS is around the corner and just after that a new IS and probably a new LS. The RX is the cream of the crop in terms of sales, so continuing down the road they're on with that 'car' won't hurt. I know they've said they want a hybrid option for every vehicle, well what about an F option? F sport is not 'F'. 'F' is a brand new vehicle that goes beyond 'F-sport'. 'F-sport' are parts that can be added, and they are a slightly less expensive alternative to 'F' vehicles. The IS-F is better than the IS 'F-sport' is it not? This is where Lexus is going. It's like M options on BMW's. They aren't 'M cars' but are 'M options'. What I want to see is if this G's comes to fruition in the US. Gazoo is basically Toyota's racing arm now with them running the IS and the LFA and other cars like the Vitz even the Prius! We seen the G's FT-86, and the Mark X! Just wait till that comes around the states in the future, I see it making a nice splash, especially the FT!
10-05-10, 03:54 AM
#40
Lexus Champion
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Gazoo is basically Toyota's racing arm now with them running the IS and the LFA and other cars like the Vitz even the Prius! We seen the G's FT-86, and the Mark X! Just wait till that comes around the states in the future, I see it making a nice splash, especially the FT!
10-05-10, 04:32 AM
#41
it doesnt really make sense because sports cars are complimentary to every brand.
What they have now is great for the states - youth brand, normal brand and premium brand... it each its sport divisions... they just need to do more, like F-Sport....
What they have now is great for the states - youth brand, normal brand and premium brand... it each its sport divisions... they just need to do more, like F-Sport....
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