LexFather

Well this had me thinking the last 3 nights. Toyota has proven it can build sports/sporty cars but currently, they don't. The MR2 and Celica are discontinued. Lexus has proven it can as well with the 1SC, IS and GS. Sporty coupes/sedans with the IS being the most hardcore Lexus.

Sadly, Camry, SUV, LS and luxury/quality OVERSHADOW any effort as of late Toyota/Lexus makes when it comes time to make a sporty car. And they have made some mistakes as well.
1. The MR-2 was too expensive. No larger engine option.
2. The Celica styling is very controversial and expensive.
3. The IS 300 did not debute with the manual, you had to wait a year for it.
4. The SC and GS are sporty but more a GT than all out sports cars/sedans.
5. They gave up on the Supra.

The last gen Supra is pretty much the only Toyota of recent memory STOCK, that really showed Toyota can make sports cars with the best of them. The last MR-2 was midengine and RWD but did not sell. The last Celica could be had with AWD (All-Trac) and 200hp but sold in very small numbers. The market and timing was off then, even exotics did not sell in the late 80s and early/mid 90s.

Toyota got hip to the game that the name "Toyota" just didn't hit it with consumers when it came to fun. So they created "SCION" to appeal to youth. And its been a TREMENDOUS hit, exceeding all expecations not just with sales but with the enthusiasm of its owners. It shows that a different brand/marketing can make a car "fun". If you have driven a Xa or Xb, they are as fun to drive as riding a 1 legged donkey. The Tc does change this some.

Onto Lexus.

Lexus has clearly established itself as the best selling and best quality brand in America for sometime now. Its best selling cars are ones that mix luxury and comfort and prestige, the ES and RX. The LS and SC sell well for their price and segment but are not a hit with enthusiasts, as they are not sporty compared to the competition. The LF-A shows a Lexus sports car, but wil the name" Lexus" put off potential buyers who think "luxury" when they think "Lexus" not sport? This is a SERIOUS issue Lexus has to deal with. Even with the next IS 250/350, will people flock to it b/c its a Lexus only, and not b/c its a sports sedan? Lexus also is a VICTIM of its own success. B/C people EXPECT the luxury and quiet and ride of a LEXUS. So for a car to be loud and ride harsher etc, well, to people, its NOT a Lexus.

With this in mind, should Toyota, create a SPORT brand, really make Lexus hardcore LUXURY and then give this new brand HARDCORE sport? From the start with the marketing and the cars, create a brand that offers manual cars, sports coupes and sedans? No SUVs, a sport wagon. Toyota does seem to slap quality and luxury into everything but instead of wood, how about carbon fiber/all aluminum interiors? Bascially how the IS and ES are total opposites currently.

People will buy b/c its made by Toyota (like Scion) and since its starting from scratch, they really can give themselves the chance to be a SPORT brand.


Now the business case, well, sports cars/sedans sell in much smaller numbers than luxury sedans. Also, it will cost billions to create a new dealer network. But then Toyota can KEEP buyers from Scion or Toyota who jump to BMW b/c of the IMAGE and the sport.


If Lexus is going to get serious in Europe, they not only have to offer diesals (why no diesal GS with the new GS?) but they have to get SPORTIER. The reviews of the new GS in Europe have been average at best. They HATE the SC with a passion. They RESPECT the LS for what it is, all out luxury and quality.
The Europeans do LOVE the IS 200/300 b/c its the "Anti Lexus" its sporty as hell, small, swift and the interior looks like no other. On top of that its the top quality car in Europe. The only thing lacking is some prestige and panache Lexus does not have there like it has here.

Imagine a new Toyota Brand, called "Olympus" that is basically a brand of IS 300s small to large. Slap in the LF-A and COUPE versions of the sedans, and its an opportunity Toyota needs to look at.

Now u maybe saying to yourself "has SICK lost it"? No, not at all. But as the time approaches for my old GS replacement, I am faced with the dilimna do I mod again? And it looks GREAT when we post pics of the product but it takes tons of time and money to;
1. Order parts
2. Install parts
3. Look for parts
4. Worry about the warrenty
5. Take the car to test to see if there are gains in performance with what was added (well shoot, I do). Like Dyno, track etc etc.

This is what makes Porsche (even though no sedan) and the M3/M5 and others so attractive. Stock, they perform BRILLANTLY. You don't HAVE to mod but you can. The starting point is more advanced.

As of right now, Lexus is becoming a jack of all trades. You have full blown luxury (LS/ES) some fun (SC/GS), full sport (IS) and SUVs (RX/GX/LX). Now we are adding HYBRIDS to the equation. If you notice in the luxury segment, the brand leaders have a one way image. It can lead to confusion, which you don't want in this segement.
1. BMW-you think sport
2. Benz-you think Luxury
3. Audi-you think AWD (Audi is HUGE in Europe, that is why I included).

If Lexus can lead in technology and engineering and creating new segments, why can't they build a high-performance factory car? Why not? Its not like the company doesn't have the talent. Its not like they have bad mangagment or marketing. Surely they have the money?

robloc93

Great thread Sic!! I honestly think they should market a sports car under the Toyota and Lexus badges. As you mentioned,the MR2 and the mighty Supra were not the sales kings because of high costs. Toyota has gone in the other direction by commiting themselves to hybrid autos. I understand that producing a sports car that has insane gas mileage and twin turbos might not correspond with the way they're running things now. But,with that said, I say give us the Volta. Toyota has proven that it could build a high performance hybrid that gets great mileage. This will not only give them a better performance rep,but also show that hybrid technology is here to stay
They should redesign the MR2 Spyder,give it the Celica's 1.8 liter vvtl-i four banger and improve the luggage capacity(the reason why it has sold poorly).The Elise has shown that this engine kicks ***
in a mid-engine, rear drive configuration

Now,as for Lexus,a company competing with the best of them, they must have a sport "Coupe". I think a GS based 2+2 seater would be awesome. It has been argued many time that people will simply not buy a $100,000+ Lexus. I honestly WOULD.If they can make a car that performs like a rocket,looks amazing,handles like a train and stops on a dime,why not buy it?? After all,the majority of people on this thread think Ford is a POS but gave positive comments on the Ford GT. I conclude that Toyota needs some sort of sports car to better it's rep,after all they have nothin to lose(rich bastards ). As for Lexus,this is kinda self explanatory,BUILD IT!!!!!

Oh,as for the question of this thread,No I don't think they should create another brand...just build upon the existing ones.

Olympus does sound kinda cool though

xravexboix

The launch of a sports brand would be incredible... yet almost working backwards.

If you look at the other 2 Japanese manufacturers, they have been established as sports brands (Acura and Infiniti). Currently, Acura is refining their line-up and becoming more of a sports brand than Luxury... while Infiniti is clearly building momentum now... while most current Luxury owners may not even give Infiniti a chance, they are getting all the buy-ups. You'll see Nissan move-ups, of course... Mr. I wanted a Maxima goes into a I35 (is that thing still around?) while 350Z buyers needing a 2+2 end up w/ a G35 Coupe... Now, even a few of our own GS members are saying they'd take the new M over the GS. Not saying either car is perfect, but I'm sure this type of consideration was blasphemous just a few years ago (hahahahaha)

If Toyota were to establish the sports brand, I would see it as a half-assed attempt at a Luxury vehicle. It seems a premium brand first starts off as a sports segment while creeping into the wanted Luxury segment. Currently, Lexus is trying to creep into the Ultra luxury segment... that's where a new brand should be launched, IMO. The demand is low, but Toyota does it for the prestige =D They already have enough income. . . so breaking even would be the best priority... although they'd obviously be making a new bucks here and there even w/ the low volume.

The rumors behind Lexus "M" type sports models haven't been killed off yet... but I see what you mean where you say Lexus' success just hurt its chances at a true sports model...

Toyota opened the Scion branch to get younger buyers into the Toyota brand (somewhat backfired hahaha) and, hopefully, retain them as brand loyal customers throughout life (Scion... Toyota... then for the priveleged, Lexus) There's no real logic to establishing the new brand because it may also take away from Lexus' sales numbers... (Lexus consumers that want a sports car) Although Lexus does have a substantial lead over the other big 2 of Luxury, BMW/BENZ, I'm sure risking it by making a premium sports brand won't happen until the lead increases by A LOT more.

GFerg

Damn, thats a long read, but great thread.

I would love the idea if Toyota started a brand that focused mainly on sport. But damn SICK, couldnt have thought of a better name??!! Olympus!!! LOL. Just messin wit ya man, better than what I would have thought of.

There are a few things to worry about.

1. First of all, how will this new brand be priced?? I cant see Lexus priced sports cars selling all to well.

2. I personally believe that Lexus right now is already doing this and it might be to late to create a sport only brand. As we can see with the new GS, and the upcoming IS, they are more sporty than previous generations. I dont think we need a sport company that basically mimics what Toyota and Lexus already have because I think it will become extremely repetitious.

3. What about Supra, Mr2, Celica, IS350 etc?? The first 3 are discontinued, but I personally believe that they can still sell well under the Toyota name if done correctly.

If they want to create a sport only brand, I personally think it should be full of exclusive one off cars(exotics maybe). Create a few ultimate exotic sports cars that take aim at Porsche, Ferrari Lambo. Have competitors for the Murci(300K+), 430 Modena(150-200K), and 911 Carrera(70K+). Have maybe 1 or 2 sedans that are the same size as a M5 and an S-class and have them as the ultimate sedan performer. Considering that Lexus is throeing in a small ounce of sport and having thoughts of starting an AMG/M class, they can market it in a similar way Audi is doing. You have the regular class(A*), Sport class(S*), and you have Racing Sport class(RS*). With Lexus you will have the Regular class, the GT Lexus class, and the last class will be the new exclusive sport exotic brand.

This brand will be a limited production brand, and will hopefully open ppls eyes to Japanese performance.

Just my thoughts ladies and gentlemen. I do enjoy the fact that SICK even thought of another sport only brand, but I dont see how it would work now if Lexus is adding more sport to the brand as we speak.

DEBATE!! I want to know what everyone else is thinking too. I'll add a few more things later, kinda tired at the moment.

encore888

I think having a fourth Toyota brand, while a very interesting idea, is questionable...first there are the costs of starting up yet another brand (again), and grumbles about Toyota getting 'bloated' would be sure to follow (e.g. today's GM). You risk cannibalizing part of the Lexus market, and diminishing the Lexus brand at the same time. Plus is the sport market that big? Even Europe car sales overall are down this year.

My belief is that Lexus as a brand is still small, now of course in Europe the IS is the only car with the 'cajones' to be sporty, now the new GS is getting there too. Of course the SC and LS won't be prime contenders for the 'sport' moniker as their emphasis is luxury. But there is still lots of room for Lexus to grow in sportiness.

But I think Lexus can be more than a one-note brand.

Lexus = Luxury. But with current trends evolving, you might see Lexus coupes as Sport with luxury included as a given. Why not make a Lexus GT line, a sort of 'sub-brand' which could enable Lexus to grow further into the Sport arena? To me, Lexus = the Best Cars out there...and to me, the 'pursuit of perfection' holds the potential of not just luxury perfection, but also performance perfection---previously a backseat item as LUXE was the goal, but now that's largely reached, next is higher up. Which is why the LF-A can become a Supercoupe contender, and why perhaps one day the sleek sports coupe turning heads down the street isn't a Lamborghini, Porsche, or Ferrari...but maybe even a Lexus.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

Actually the last All-Trac Celica was in 1993, well at least in the US. They had the All-Trac the generation after but that was not in our shores.

I think the tC is a great replacement. Good marketing too because it's not really the Celica. It's more powerful because it has the 2.4 Camry engine not the 1.8 engine that most other Toyota cars have. I think the Matrix, Celica, xB, xA. It shouldn't have been that expensive if it shared parts with many other cars.

TwiBlueG35

Nobody could be everything. Lexus should just stick with what they have been doing for the past sixteen years and keep improving, not try to barge into other terriories such as BMW's or even Posrche's.

Lexusfreak

I think with Toyota, Lexus & Scion they have enough brands covering pretty much all the marketplace.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Toyota doesn't need another branch to market sports or sporty cars. The can do it with what they have. In the case of Lexus, all they need to do is market an AMG, or M type badging. Even Acura has their sporty badged cars of Type-R, Type-S, now A-Spec. They may not offer much of any performance improvement on a whole, but it separates itself from the general base line. Lexus also needs a coupe again. Forget giving us only a 2 Door convertable (SC430) as some of us want fixed roof coupes. With the LF-A, Lexus is on the right track. I would say bring a car like this (Maybe tweek the design a bit) to market, learn from the experience, then bring out more. Also, step up into the exotic car market and challange Ferrari and Lamborghini. Lexus needs to remember that while everyone agrees for the most part that Lexus makes the most reliable cars, exotic cars buyers don't care about that and want performance, drivability, and loooks. When they enter the exotic car market, it is not enough to match the performance of the current exotics even if it comes at a lower price tag. That will convert a few, but not the mainstream hardcore. It didn't work with the NSX and I don't think it will work for any Japanese brand in the near future. What Lexus needs to do is revolutionize the market just like the NSX did, but not only that they need to keep updating their products. In the sports car market and exotic car market HP sells. The NSX still performs well even my todays standards but on paper it looks like crap against the competition. Many times people here said Lexus doesn't want top give in to the HP wars, but if they want to compete in the sports/exotic car market they have to bite the bullent and play the HP game. Anyway, Toyota IMHO doesn't need another brand. Just give us a performance badge. Bring back turbo or supercharged engines for their sports cars, but keep the exotic cars NA. Work on the driving feel and most importently the steering feel and feedback. I believe they are already close, but the steering feel is what keeps Lexus cars from having that true sport image. This is the reason why a damn BMW 318 can feel more sporty than even an IS300.

Gojirra99

Agree with all that

I still like the idea of trying to acquire Porsche . . .

Lexusfreak

Didn't know Porsche was for sale. Toyota has enough cash to buy Every automaker right now combined & still start a new brand I'd bet.

Gojirra99

I'm just referring back to the ideal merger thread 1Sick started a while ago

GQD_GS4

isnt the supra returning to the market in 2008, after the skyline?

Celicamaro

Toyota doesn't have any performacne vehicle even if they wanted to start a new brand. What they need is a separate brand for their SUVs!! They've got more SUVs between Toyota n Lexus than everyone else combined. Everytime I go into a lexus or Toyota dealer, I can't see jack, cuz those dam SUVs are blocking off half the showroom floor.

mmarshall

I'm not going to take sides on this issue ( yet ) because I am undecided.....there is a strong case for both sides here.

One issue that is related to this I WILL bring up, though........... and this hits MUCH closer to home here:
Suppose, as Mike suggests, Toyota (or Lexus) WERE to introduce a new sport-oriented division (especially one with a totally different name, not just an in-house AMG, M-Motorsport, S, V, A-Spec, SS, SVT, etc.... like some other companies. What then would happen to our Club Lexus forum as some of the present CL members gradually bought into the new "Sport " division? Would CL remain one forum, split into two, or just expand into a Club Lexus and Club-whatever the new division name would be? Where would Dave end up, and who would be the Administator of a new forum if we needed one? How many of our moderators would stay on and how many would join a possible new forum? Who would take their places? Would there be sponsors for a new forum?
If Lexus creates a new division without a new name, a partial solution to the problem might be to have Luxury Lexus and Sport-Lexus sub-forums under a CL master forum..

I bring these questions up not just to stir the pot but to illustrate that if Lexus were to split into two different-named divisions, we might have to face some of these questions. Scion's introduction did not bring these questions up, but, of course, Scion was a separate new down-market division that did not directly affect Lexus......or this forum.