Big 3 fend off Asian pickups
06-20-05, 05:43 AM
#1
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Big 3 fend off Asian pickups
U.S. truck market, which generates big earnings, proves tough to crack for Honda, Toyota.
By Christine Tierney / The Detroit News
The 2006 Ridgeline stumbled out of the gate, with lower sales than expected since its debut in March, but Honda hopes the pickup truck will have staying power against entrenched U.S. lines.
When real estate broker Greg Harla set out to buy a pickup, he was torn between the smooth-handling Honda Ridgeline and the Ford F-150 King Ranch with stitched leather seats. It came down to legroom and looks -- and he felt the F-150 offered more of both.
"I'm 6-foot-5, and the problem with the Ridgeline was that, while it was comfortable for short distances, it doesn't have the legroom the Ford has," said Harla, of Milford, Conn. In addition, "the Ridgeline was too radical-looking."
Since its March debut, Honda Motor Co.'s first pickup for the U.S. market is slow to gain traction. Nissan Motor Co.'s full-size Titan pickup also has fallen short of sales targets in this all-American segment, which accounts for 18 percent of the U.S. light-vehicle market and is proving tough for outsiders to crack.
Even mighty Toyota Motor Corp., which has pounded Detroit's automakers in the midsize and luxury car markets, keeps going back to the drawing board after stumbling with undersized and underpowered early truck offerings, such as the T100.
Detroit automakers have lost a lot of territory to foreign rivals in the U.S. car market. But they are holding their ground in big pickups -- a rich source of profit -- by responding swiftly to their customers' changing demands and offering good service and a wide variety of models and engine sizes.
Since 1996, Japanese brands have increased their share of the overall pickup market by 2 percentage points, to 15 percent. But now, equipped with bigger and better vehicles, the Japanese are mounting a fresh challenge in one of the Big Three's last strongholds.
Nissan fired the first volley in 2003, when it introduced the brawny Titan in the most lucrative segment -- versatile full-size pickups that double as rugged work vehicles and personal transportation.
In 2004, Nissan sold just under 84,000 Titans in the United States, missing its target for 100,000 sales annually. "We knew it would be a heavily defended segment, and it was," said Jed Connelly, senior vice president for Nissan North America Inc.
Detroit brands -- led by Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge and GMC -- sold 2.1 million full-size pickups in 2004, a 3 percent gain over the previous year.
Displaying none of the complacency that led to their market share losses in the car market, Detroit's automakers are rolling out new trucks, including the Chrysler Group's restyled 2006 Dodge Ram 1500 and Ford Motor Co.'s showy Lincoln Mark LT pickup with chrome touches on the exterior and a wood-trimmed cabin.
"A trucker is a special sort of person," said Darryl Hazel, president of Ford Motor Co.'s Ford division, whose F-Series is the country's most popular truck line. "You have to earn your spurs in trucks."
The Japanese will turn up the heat next year, when Toyota rolls out a bigger, beefier, Texas-built Tundra. It's Toyota's most ambitious foray into the pickup market, and executives at the Japanese automaker appreciate the enormity of the challenge.
"This is similar to what we did with Lexus in the 1980s," when Toyota first ventured into the premium car market, said Jim Farley, vice president for marketing at Toyota Motor Sales USA.
"But what would that have looked like if Cadillac and Lincoln then had excellent reputations?"
In the pickup segments, "you have the excellence of the hometown heroes that's undeniable and proven," Farley said.
Toyota has done a lot of homework in preparation for the launch.
Two months ago, Paul Williamsen, a Toyota product education manager in California, visited the automaker's test track and proving grounds in Shibetsu, on the windswept northern Japanese island of Hokkaido. "I was surprised to see five, six large American camping trailers in the parking lot -- I'm talking mid-20-, up to 30-foot-long things," Williamsen said.
"It's proof how serious these guys are about testing and evaluating the truck to meet the needs of this market."
The Japanese automaker also is beefing up sales training courses in California for its 1,200 U.S. dealers and their employees. "Truck customers have high expectations and a deep need for product knowledge," compared with car buyers, said Williamsen.
"You have to deal with a customer asking, 'I've got Brand X trailer in size Y -- will this thing haul it?'"
Top Toyota engineers and designers have spent months in the United States developing a feel for the culture and activities that generate demand for pickups.
"The pickup truck is very largely a North American product," Hazel said. "It's part of the culture here. You have individual entrepreneurs who make their living with it."
The Japanese don't build full-size pickups in Japan, which is one reason they didn't target the segment earlier. "It takes a real effort to make what you don't sell in your home market," Hazel said.
Honda didn't even have a truck chassis when it decided to build a pickup. Its engineers strengthened and modified the Pilot sport utility vehicle's chassis and attached a boxed truck frame to the structure. The result is a vehicle that's more rigid and handles more smoothly than most pickups, which have separate cabs and truck beds.
"The Ridgeline rides, handles and stops better than any truck I've driven," Jerry Garrett wrote in a review for the New York Times.
The July edition of the influential Consumer Reports magazine rates the new Ridgeline tops in the compact pickup segment.
Don Poley, sales manager at LaFontaine Honda in Dearborn, said customers are taken aback by the Ridgeline's $28,000 base price.
"It's more than (the price of) a domestic -- but once people get in the vehicle, drive it, they realize they've got a high-quality vehicle."
Other Japanese pickups also are winning kudos. Four Wheeler magazine chose the Titan as its 2004 Truck of the Year. Toyota's Tacoma compact pickup and current Tundra earn high marks in J.D. Power and Associates' quality surveys.
But domestic brands win the top awards in all pickup classes. In the mid- and full-size truck categories, Ford's Explorer Sport Trac and the F-150 earn the best scores, while the GMC Sierra won in the heavy-duty segment.
"The Japanese truck manufacturers won't have an easy time of it," said Jim Stewart, assistant director of sales at Grande Truck Center in San Antonio, Texas.
Customers who rely on trucks to run their businesses tend to be fiercely loyal, he said.
But, he added, customers who want trucks for personal use are less reluctant to switch brands and dealers. Rising sales of crew cab, or four-door, pickups suggest that group is growing rapidly.
Even in Texas, attitudes are changing, according to a recent survey by the consulting firm CNW Marketing in Bandon, Ore. This year, 20 percent of prospective pickup buyers in that state would consider a Japanese brand, up from 4 percent in 2000.
Sales data from R.L. Polk & Co. show that Nissan's Titan and Toyota's Tundra have a greater proportion of Hispanic buyers, a group with a growing presence in key truck markets.
Nissan says the Titan's 1.1 percent share of the Texas vehicle market is greater than its 0.7 percent share nationwide.
Said Nissan's Connelly: "We've done very well in Texas."
By Christine Tierney / The Detroit News
The 2006 Ridgeline stumbled out of the gate, with lower sales than expected since its debut in March, but Honda hopes the pickup truck will have staying power against entrenched U.S. lines.
When real estate broker Greg Harla set out to buy a pickup, he was torn between the smooth-handling Honda Ridgeline and the Ford F-150 King Ranch with stitched leather seats. It came down to legroom and looks -- and he felt the F-150 offered more of both.
"I'm 6-foot-5, and the problem with the Ridgeline was that, while it was comfortable for short distances, it doesn't have the legroom the Ford has," said Harla, of Milford, Conn. In addition, "the Ridgeline was too radical-looking."
Since its March debut, Honda Motor Co.'s first pickup for the U.S. market is slow to gain traction. Nissan Motor Co.'s full-size Titan pickup also has fallen short of sales targets in this all-American segment, which accounts for 18 percent of the U.S. light-vehicle market and is proving tough for outsiders to crack.
Even mighty Toyota Motor Corp., which has pounded Detroit's automakers in the midsize and luxury car markets, keeps going back to the drawing board after stumbling with undersized and underpowered early truck offerings, such as the T100.
Detroit automakers have lost a lot of territory to foreign rivals in the U.S. car market. But they are holding their ground in big pickups -- a rich source of profit -- by responding swiftly to their customers' changing demands and offering good service and a wide variety of models and engine sizes.
Since 1996, Japanese brands have increased their share of the overall pickup market by 2 percentage points, to 15 percent. But now, equipped with bigger and better vehicles, the Japanese are mounting a fresh challenge in one of the Big Three's last strongholds.
Nissan fired the first volley in 2003, when it introduced the brawny Titan in the most lucrative segment -- versatile full-size pickups that double as rugged work vehicles and personal transportation.
In 2004, Nissan sold just under 84,000 Titans in the United States, missing its target for 100,000 sales annually. "We knew it would be a heavily defended segment, and it was," said Jed Connelly, senior vice president for Nissan North America Inc.
Detroit brands -- led by Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge and GMC -- sold 2.1 million full-size pickups in 2004, a 3 percent gain over the previous year.
Displaying none of the complacency that led to their market share losses in the car market, Detroit's automakers are rolling out new trucks, including the Chrysler Group's restyled 2006 Dodge Ram 1500 and Ford Motor Co.'s showy Lincoln Mark LT pickup with chrome touches on the exterior and a wood-trimmed cabin.
"A trucker is a special sort of person," said Darryl Hazel, president of Ford Motor Co.'s Ford division, whose F-Series is the country's most popular truck line. "You have to earn your spurs in trucks."
The Japanese will turn up the heat next year, when Toyota rolls out a bigger, beefier, Texas-built Tundra. It's Toyota's most ambitious foray into the pickup market, and executives at the Japanese automaker appreciate the enormity of the challenge.
"This is similar to what we did with Lexus in the 1980s," when Toyota first ventured into the premium car market, said Jim Farley, vice president for marketing at Toyota Motor Sales USA.
"But what would that have looked like if Cadillac and Lincoln then had excellent reputations?"
In the pickup segments, "you have the excellence of the hometown heroes that's undeniable and proven," Farley said.
Toyota has done a lot of homework in preparation for the launch.
Two months ago, Paul Williamsen, a Toyota product education manager in California, visited the automaker's test track and proving grounds in Shibetsu, on the windswept northern Japanese island of Hokkaido. "I was surprised to see five, six large American camping trailers in the parking lot -- I'm talking mid-20-, up to 30-foot-long things," Williamsen said.
"It's proof how serious these guys are about testing and evaluating the truck to meet the needs of this market."
The Japanese automaker also is beefing up sales training courses in California for its 1,200 U.S. dealers and their employees. "Truck customers have high expectations and a deep need for product knowledge," compared with car buyers, said Williamsen.
"You have to deal with a customer asking, 'I've got Brand X trailer in size Y -- will this thing haul it?'"
Top Toyota engineers and designers have spent months in the United States developing a feel for the culture and activities that generate demand for pickups.
"The pickup truck is very largely a North American product," Hazel said. "It's part of the culture here. You have individual entrepreneurs who make their living with it."
The Japanese don't build full-size pickups in Japan, which is one reason they didn't target the segment earlier. "It takes a real effort to make what you don't sell in your home market," Hazel said.
Honda didn't even have a truck chassis when it decided to build a pickup. Its engineers strengthened and modified the Pilot sport utility vehicle's chassis and attached a boxed truck frame to the structure. The result is a vehicle that's more rigid and handles more smoothly than most pickups, which have separate cabs and truck beds.
"The Ridgeline rides, handles and stops better than any truck I've driven," Jerry Garrett wrote in a review for the New York Times.
The July edition of the influential Consumer Reports magazine rates the new Ridgeline tops in the compact pickup segment.
Don Poley, sales manager at LaFontaine Honda in Dearborn, said customers are taken aback by the Ridgeline's $28,000 base price.
"It's more than (the price of) a domestic -- but once people get in the vehicle, drive it, they realize they've got a high-quality vehicle."
Other Japanese pickups also are winning kudos. Four Wheeler magazine chose the Titan as its 2004 Truck of the Year. Toyota's Tacoma compact pickup and current Tundra earn high marks in J.D. Power and Associates' quality surveys.
But domestic brands win the top awards in all pickup classes. In the mid- and full-size truck categories, Ford's Explorer Sport Trac and the F-150 earn the best scores, while the GMC Sierra won in the heavy-duty segment.
"The Japanese truck manufacturers won't have an easy time of it," said Jim Stewart, assistant director of sales at Grande Truck Center in San Antonio, Texas.
Customers who rely on trucks to run their businesses tend to be fiercely loyal, he said.
But, he added, customers who want trucks for personal use are less reluctant to switch brands and dealers. Rising sales of crew cab, or four-door, pickups suggest that group is growing rapidly.
Even in Texas, attitudes are changing, according to a recent survey by the consulting firm CNW Marketing in Bandon, Ore. This year, 20 percent of prospective pickup buyers in that state would consider a Japanese brand, up from 4 percent in 2000.
Sales data from R.L. Polk & Co. show that Nissan's Titan and Toyota's Tundra have a greater proportion of Hispanic buyers, a group with a growing presence in key truck markets.
Nissan says the Titan's 1.1 percent share of the Texas vehicle market is greater than its 0.7 percent share nationwide.
Said Nissan's Connelly: "We've done very well in Texas."
06-20-05, 10:03 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Absolutely, without question, domestic truck sales...especially the Ford C-150 and Chevy Silverado is a difficult market to crack. Cowboys, ranchers, construction workers, and handymen are just hooked on them. The only other group I have seen as stubbornly addicted to their machines are the mostly senior-citizen Cadillac DeVille and Buick Park Avenue crowd. ( Although BMW M-drivers also rank up there )
06-20-05, 07:28 PM
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Wow, can't wait to see the new Tundra. It will take some time before Toyota can compete on the same level w/ the F-series. They gotta have more engine options, bigger chassis, and a lower price.
06-20-05, 07:52 PM
#4
I hate trucks (too big for myself...) but I can't wait to see the new Tundra after seeing the current Tacoma... the new Tacoma improved on the old one (which was also a great truck)!! The current Tundra double cab is awesome (sans engine choices...) so we should all expect the best from the upcoming Tundra... ::: Drool :::
06-20-05, 10:53 PM
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Japanese trucks are currently pretty unimpressive. We bought a 2004 F150 last year and love it. We looked at the Tundra (not enough towing capacity or power) and the Titan (great engine, but kinda cheesy looking outside). Ford's other huge strength that the Japanese brands can't match is the after market support. Want a tow hitch of any kind? Tonneau? Tool box? Good luck finding as wide a selection for a Tundra or Titan.
And about that Ridgeline, that's truly the new Honda 'Aztek' - it's pathetic.
And about that Ridgeline, that's truly the new Honda 'Aztek' - it's pathetic.
06-21-05, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
And about that Ridgeline, that's truly the new Honda 'Aztek' - it's pathetic.
M.
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06-21-05, 08:36 AM
#8
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Japanese trucks are currently pretty unimpressive. We bought a 2004 F150 last year and love it. We looked at the Tundra (not enough towing capacity or power) and the Titan (great engine, but kinda cheesy looking outside). Ford's other huge strength that the Japanese brands can't match is the after market support. Want a tow hitch of any kind? Tonneau? Tool box? Good luck finding as wide a selection for a Tundra or Titan.
And about that Ridgeline, that's truly the new Honda 'Aztek' - it's pathetic.
And about that Ridgeline, that's truly the new Honda 'Aztek' - it's pathetic.
06-21-05, 08:48 AM
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The pickup market is really all that the US automakers still own. Even SUV marketshare is slipping away.
I agree, the big three's trucks are still the best and will probably stay that way.
I agree, the big three's trucks are still the best and will probably stay that way.
06-21-05, 09:41 AM
#10
Like I posted (https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=167602) I am looking at getting a pickup truck as my new vehicle. Can you guys offer some more brand-specific input? What doesnt everyone like about the current double cab Tundra?
Pickup requirements: 4-door, large back seat area, and leather. Thats all I am really looking for as far as options go. I dont need 4x4. I got a quote on a 2005 Toyota Tundra Limited V8 4x2 Double Cab with offroad package and leather for $25,388.00 plus tax, tag & fees.I have yet to price out an F-150 yet, but it looks like for the leather to even be an option I have to go for the Lariet or whatever it is.
Pickup requirements: 4-door, large back seat area, and leather. Thats all I am really looking for as far as options go. I dont need 4x4. I got a quote on a 2005 Toyota Tundra Limited V8 4x2 Double Cab with offroad package and leather for $25,388.00 plus tax, tag & fees.I have yet to price out an F-150 yet, but it looks like for the leather to even be an option I have to go for the Lariet or whatever it is.
06-21-05, 11:45 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by mteele
Pickup requirements: 4-door, large back seat area, and leather. Thats all I am really looking for as far as options go. I dont need 4x4. I got a quote on a 2005 Toyota Tundra Limited V8 4x2 Double Cab with offroad package and leather for $25,388.00 plus tax, tag & fees.I have yet to price out an F-150 yet, but it looks like for the leather to even be an option I have to go for the Lariet or whatever it is.
), but the FX4 package is also a more capable off road package. Anyway, it also came with leather, plus the FX4 has the fake carbon fiber type interior which I actually think looks GREAT. The leather isn't Lexus like but it's fine.We got the supercab model ('scab' as Ford enthusiasts call it, lol) which has the short reverse rear doors but gave us the longer bed which we wanted. You'd want the supercrew ('screw'!) with the 4 regular doors and shorter bed.
(Edit: oops, saw in the other thread you know this... - need to combine your threads!!)
06-21-05, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jracerlmn
well it's mainly nuts to go against the steel workers union...
most of the union guys buy american (union made) trucks....
most of the union guys buy american (union made) trucks....
union workers are all about the USA....trying to convince them to buy foreign is like trying to convince us to buy daewoo...
06-21-05, 04:05 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by GQD_GS4
union workers are all about the USA....trying to convince them to buy foreign is like trying to convince us to buy daewoo...
06-21-05, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Daewoo is building better products today than you think. Just go to your nearest Suzuki dealer if you want to see them for yourself. Many Suzuki-nameplate vehicles today are made by Daewoo, and are quite well-designed and built...especially for the low prices.
does that convince us to buy daewoo here on the lexus forum? or do would we choose lexus any day for other reasons unexplained...
06-22-05, 09:26 AM
#15
I agree with what has been said. As a pickup fan (owning a last gen Tacoma, a Tundra and now considering a new Tacoma) I think it is going to be very hard to convince the Ford/Chevy/Dodge loyalists to switch over to another side. It might even be mission impossible in the auto industry, for now.
I have a lot of co-workers who would fall into this catagory. Not to generalize them, but most of the ones I know have strong views on domestic and import trucks. Some would die before they switch over to the other side. They love their trucks. However, a market that the imports can dominate is the small pickup market. The Tacoma's and Frontier's clearly have the edge over the 15 year old design of the Ford Ranger and the small Colorado. The Dakota? I have yet to see a re-designed model on the road, only a bunch from the previous gen. Even though I believe the Ranger is still selling better (esp. as a single cab work truck), time will eventually catch up because from all the mags and info so far, that thing won't be redesigned until at least 2009. Heck in California, you already see more Tacoma's than any other small truck.
Small truck market? Yes, they could.
Full sized truck market? I don't see it anytime soon.
I have a lot of co-workers who would fall into this catagory. Not to generalize them, but most of the ones I know have strong views on domestic and import trucks. Some would die before they switch over to the other side. They love their trucks. However, a market that the imports can dominate is the small pickup market. The Tacoma's and Frontier's clearly have the edge over the 15 year old design of the Ford Ranger and the small Colorado. The Dakota? I have yet to see a re-designed model on the road, only a bunch from the previous gen. Even though I believe the Ranger is still selling better (esp. as a single cab work truck), time will eventually catch up because from all the mags and info so far, that thing won't be redesigned until at least 2009. Heck in California, you already see more Tacoma's than any other small truck.
Small truck market? Yes, they could.
Full sized truck market? I don't see it anytime soon.