Gojirra99

Toyota, Honda inflated claims of engine muscle; new tests force automakers to come clean with buyers.

By Jeff Plungis / Detroit News Washington Bureau

Horsepower ratings
Vehicle 2005 2006
Acura MDX 265 253
Acura RL 300 290
Acura RSX 160 155
Chevrolet Corvette LS7 500 505
Cadillac XLR 440 469
Ford Explorer* 210 210
Honda Civic 200 197
Lexus LS430 290 278
Pontiac G6 200 201
Toyota Corolla 130 126
Scion xB 108 103
*New powertrain


WASHINGTON -- After years of touting ever higher horsepower numbers to win new customers, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and possibly other automakers are now backtracking on some of those claims.

Strict new tests developed by the industry's top engineering group are prompting the carmakers to roll back horsepower estimates on several key vehicles, including the Toyota Camry, America's best-selling car, and Honda's luxurious Acura RL.

For the 2006 model year, Toyota says its Camry equipped with a 3-liter V-6 engine generates 190 horsepower. In 2005, Toyota said the same car with the same engine had 210 horsepower.

The revised ratings comply with new Society of Automotive Engineers standards designed to eliminate subjective interpretation in establishing horsepower claims.

While Toyota and Honda are retesting their entire vehicle lineups, other automakers generally are retesting only cars and trucks with updated powertrains.

Over time, most automakers are expected to comply with the new guidelines, and horsepower ratings for other vehicles could be revised.

Detroit's automakers say they have been conservative in calculating horsepower and don't expect to have to reduce horsepower ratings on many vehicles. In fact, after retesting, the Big Three have revised horsepower ratings upward on several vehicles.

The changes are likely to raise questions among customers.

"Horsepower is a big draw," said Jim Sanfilippo, an automotive marketing expert at AMCI Inc.

"This is at best difficult to explain," he added.

"Toyota and the other companies better have a good answer when customers ask questions about what happened."

The Camry has been a best-seller for years and a linchpin in Toyota's strategy to increase sales in North America.

Honda is reducing horsepower ratings across its Acura brand. The flagship RL sedan will lose 10 horsepower, to 290 from 300. The popular MDX SUV will fall from a rating of 265 to 253. Less powerful models such as the Honda Civic will see smaller reductions.

"From what we've seen so far, this is going to affect the Japanese and the Europeans a lot more than the domestic manufacturers," said Mark Brueggemann, senior market analyst for Kelley Blue Book.

Brueggemann said engines have not changed, so car shoppers won't notice any drop-off in performance during test drives. But consumers look at horsepower when they're deciding which models to test drive and buy.

For example, the 190-horsepower Camry will compete against a new Hyundai Sonata that advertises 235 horses under the hood. "This could have a possible effect of eliminating a car from consideration," he said.

The changes are already having an impact among die-hards who prowl Internet chat rooms like AutoWeek's Combustion Chamber, Edmunds Town Hall and GM Insidenews. In a recent posting on AutoWeek's site under the heading, "Acura hurt by new SAE hp standard -- numbers were inflated," one chatter said: "Bottom line is if you sell me a car with the promise of say 300 hp, I want my 300 hp!"

Toyota had to advertise based on the new SAE testing procedures because of a California state law, said company spokesman Bill Kwong. The company then decided to use one set of ratings for all of its U.S. ads.

"We hope it won't be confusing," Kwong said. "If you drive a 2006 or 2005, it drives the same. It's the same car. Customers are not getting anything less or anything more."

Honda spokesman Mike Spencer predicted it would take a few years for customers to understand the changes, but eventually all manufacturers will be using the new SAE tests.

"We've been using SAE procedures all along, it's just that SAE changed their procedures," he said.

The news is better for General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. Some models such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Fusion sedan are faring better under the new testing procedures, which could give them a much-needed edge in the marketplace.

The Cadillac XLR roadster with a Northstar engine saw its horsepower rating go from 440 to 469.

"We have confidence that our customers will get the power they pay for," said GM spokesman Thomas Read. "It's going to give the consumer a better rating for their engine."

As the new testing procedure is phased in, it may be tricky for consumers. For example, the Ford Five Hundred sedan is rated at 203 horsepower for 2006, the same as the 2005 model. But the 2006 rating does not reflect the new SAE testing procedure, because Ford is not going to the expense of retesting its existing engines, said company spokesman Nick Twork.

The company will use the new SAE test only when it overhauls a powertrain, as it did for next year's Explorer, Twork said.

But Twork said Ford does not expect significant drop-offs in horsepower as the new test is phased in. When Ford unveiled its midsize Fusion sedan in January, it projected 210 horsepower. When it was tested under SAE's official protocol, the engine received a 221 horsepower rating, Twork said.

"We typically like to underpromise and overdeliver," Twork said. "We feel we've been pretty conservative, and we don't anticipate any major changes."

DaimlerChrysler is using the new SAE procedures on any model with changes in its powertrain, said spokesman Cole Quinnell. He said the company expects new ratings to be within 3 percent of the old ratings, with some going up and some going down. DaimlerChrysler is making a special effort to test high-performance models, like the Dodge Viper V-10. The Viper now tests at 510 horsepower, up from 500 in 2005.

"We've wholeheartedly embraced the new procedures," Quinnell said. "We hope it shows our credibility."

When an engine doesn't measure up to its advertised performance, it can hurt. Mazda Motor Corp. reintroduced the rotary engine with its RX-8 sports coupe a few years ago. It had a high horsepower rating. But when drivers got inside, they discovered weak low-end torque, meaning that the rocket-like acceleration they'd expected was missing.

Ford pulled its high-performance Mustang Cobra from the market a few years ago when enthusiasts complained the engine did not live up to its billing. Ford tweaked the engine before selling it again.

SAE says it tightened its horsepower rules when engineers noticed some elements in the old test were prone to interpretation.

"We tried to tighten language that was open to interpretation," said Dave Lancaster, a technical fellow at General Motors Corp. who chaired the SAE committee that wrote the new requirements.

Under the old testing procedures, there were small factors that required a judgment call: how much oil was in the crankcase, how the engine controls were calibrated and whether a vehicle was tested with premium fuel. In some cases, the little adjustments added up to a big change in horsepower ratings. The new SAE procedures allow less wiggle room.

John Di Pietro, road test editor at Edmunds.com, said the drop in horsepower ratings for '06 models they have tested are not especially dramatic. For vehicles such as a midsize family sedan, the reputation of the manufacturer will likely be more important, Di Pietro said.

"It will be up to the salesman to ensure they understand the engine hasn't actually lost any power," he said.



source : detnews

mmarshall

Far too much emphasis is given to HP figures anyway. TORQUE is what really counts in most normal, everyday stop-and-go driving. Torque is what actually gives you your acceleration, (especially low-speed acceleration) towing capacity, ability to climb hills, etc.....
HP in general only comes into play at very high speeds overcoming air resistance....and as such is more of an indicator of a vehicle's top speed than its performance on a drag strip.

In general, normally-aspirated engines with a large bore, short stroke, and light flywheel will have a higher redline and better HP figures.
Normally-asprated engines with a small bore, long stroke, and heavy flywheel will have a lower redline and better torque figures.
Diesel engines usually have the lowest redlines, lowest HP figures, and the highest torque figures.

Turbos and superchargers, of course, can alter a number of factors, depending on how they are designed and installed.

biker

This is the reason that real world performance is more important than any claimed HP number. Even in an apples-to-apples HP comparison if the drivetrain of one car is much more efficient at putting it to the wheels, the HP numbers could still be misleading.

At least with the new SAE rating everyone's HP should be the same.

Gojirra99

The torque figures are overrated as well . . .

Leets

Exactly... people tend to forget their cars come with transmissions, too.

Bercasio

iTrader: (1)

So greed took over for a bit on a piece of paper in the auto asian market. But honestly did anybody notice? And if consumers think that the more horse power the better, then why it is that the asian car market still have better quality within the engines, electrical system, fit and finish and all that jazz? As for even winning all these quality awards? And the high demand? For the domestic market, the executives at this point will ride on the fact "Well then! At least we are honest of our engines we bulid and would rather over deliver than give less" if that is the case, why are they not on top? and continue to struggle? And simple fact that their cars just don't last as long? The horse power maybe there at par or then some in black and white, but the overall quality definitely is not. I just hope the rest of the consumers do not see it any different. It's true "dishonesty is not the best policy", but as for the rest of the domestic market they never were, just based on annual re-calls alone, as for exploding gas tanks upon collision, and that infamous big 4x4 lighting up on fire by its' faulty ignition and the list goes on for most domestic makes and models....as if we are like lab rats being tested on. The LS430 was rated 290 down to 278, so what? It is still all 278 hp reliable, and worth every penny. Besides with prestine and unique asian technology a bit of tweaking hear and there by those manufacturers can bring up the numbers, there is always that "hidden secret" within their engines and can most likely do this from their laptops!

UDel

That article sounds more like a pro-American car GM, Ford, Chrysler and anti Japanese/European. Interesting how Detroit news would run it. American companies have overrated their engines in the past too even more blatantly then what a few Japanese cars have done. They only list Japanese over ratings and American under ratings and failed to list the cars that stayed the same or where skewed the other way. I don't think resale value will be affected much if any because people still know the 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times are real and won't change and a horsepower number is just a number. Even with slightly overrated hp most Japanese cars usaully out accelerate and outperform American competition that has equal or more horsepower. The best selling Camry has never sold on horsepower or performance since it usaully has the lowest in the segment so I don't see why Toyota will have to explain to customers what happend. The Acura RSX and maybe Honda Accords and Nissan Altima/Maxima may have a few more concerned customers because part of their appeal is higher horsepower and handling/performance but these cars still out accelerate their competition so it should not be as big a deal either. The article sounds a little biased in my opinion but it is true their is either going to be adjustments in engine tuning to put out the claimed horsepower or many cars are going to be advertised with less horsepower in the future for this new standard.

Lexmex

I have no doubt this is true. I saw Consumer Reports Article showing the RX330 get 17.0 secs in the 1/4 mile. Yet, my 99 RX300 AWD is supposed to get 16.8 stock! Go figure.

However, I agree with my clublexus friends that American & European car makers also probably bump up their figures.

I recently ripped up one of those new supposely higher powered Accords on time at my local track with my RX. Should not be possible.

Celicamaro

What a stupid article.

Lexusfreak

I think it's funny that the domestics actually have more HP then they reported.

doug_999

Guys, I think there will be some fall out here. The Camry lost almost 10% of its HP. People are not going to be happy unless a good explanation comes up. Worse if the Domestics and Europeans go UP in HP cause of the new ratings.

Fact is that Toyota and Honda were taking advantage of some loopholes and it appears they got caught. I do give them credit for re-testing under the new procedures - something they did NOT have to do.

LexusLuver

I dunno what the fascination w/hp peak is, I've always used acceleration numbers of cars in comparisons to decide how much power it really available.

From my experience all the cars feel the same powerwise, I'd be more interested in NHV, fuel economy, and reliability.

The Avalon is now 268hp putting it on par w/an E350, and Nissan's failure to retest their overrated V6 engines isn't cool either, IMO.

STIG

my slow RSX is only at 155 now. i lost five horses, lol.

Celicamaro

How bout domestics and Euros in general, how do they do? Vipers and a few supercharged V8 domestics don't represent all of detroits. How bout those MAzdas own by Ford or that Pontiac Vibe?

But it don't really matter anyway cuz more power doesn't equal better performances. So that articles futile attempt to thro dirt on the asian makes isn't going to improve Detroit sales or Euros poor quality.

DrewSRX

The VK45DE in the 2006 FX45 went up 5 HP, from 315 to 320 under the new SAE J1349 rating system. It is noted in their recent press release. I wouldn't be surprised if the VQ35DE does the same in the future. But, it will be interesting to see what happens.