Inabj2

If no one bought first production year cars..then there wouldnt be a second year production cars!

Leets

that's an excellent point... we should all thank those daring individuals who risk first-year models so the the rest of us can enjoy vehicles with all the quirks worked out already.

RON430

Before I get all wound up with just how smart I am I guess I should ask the question did anything on the least reliable list surprise anybody? I don't think I was surprised because there are a lot of cars that I just am not very aware how realible, or unreliable, they are. But I was disappointed. It seemed to me that the new 5 was getting some early very good numbers but at least for the V8 it doesn't seem to have held up. I also heard the rumor that the 7 had improved. I already mentioned I was disappointed in the 300 and Mustang V6 being on the list. Jag was a disappointment although there is another one where nothing seems to change. I was also pretty disappointed in the A8 being on the list. I guess we should ask the question whether anyone thinks the numbers are cooked slightly by the customer. By that I mean do merc and bimmer owners expect more and are more critical of their cars? I do not think that is a big factor because there are a great many more bimmer and merc owners who maintain just how reliable their cars are even as the tow truck drives off with them. I am not a big truck fan but I have felt after owning quite a few different models that other Japanese brands get reputations for reliability that are more due to Toyota spillover than their own products. Hope that doesn't get me flamed but I just don't feel that Nissan or Mazda screw a car together for the long haul as well as Toyota and I think they have done better in the rankings because of toyota. So seeing the big Nissan show up was somewhat surprising.

Once again showing my remarkable grasp of the obvious, reliability is not only a moving target, but the worse brands have been worse for decades. I can make allowances for Detroit because they just aren't that bright in cars anymore but it is arrogance that keeps them at the bottom. Wake up Jag, BMW, Merc, and Audi. You still have people willing to not only have unreliable cars but pay a premium to get it. GM was just as sure of their customers in 1965 as you are in 2005. That is not as harsh as it seems but I would really like to seriously look at those brands but you will get more talk from me than anything as I doubt I would seriously go back to owning them until they have quite a few years of measurable reliability improvement.

Lil4X

I worked for a number of years in a product development group that took new oilfield drilling technologies (involving EXPENSIVE machinery) into the field for real-world testing and development. We also got to sell the first 25 to 75 units - products with no real track record. THAT was a challenge. For that reason, I sympathize with carmakers who introduce new models and new technologies . . . I feel their pain.

Whatever testing you do - in the lab or in the field - you never really know where all the problems lie until you get a lot of products into the customer's hands. You learn quickly the value of a rapid-response engineering team to head off potential crises. Service is critical, but production changes are VITAL to prevent service issues from swamping your service department.

"Stupid mistakes" are usually the result of misunderstanding of the application. A high-torque air motor that works perfectly in a test fixture for months destroys itself within a few days in the field. Engineering didn't understand that "rig air" often contains moisture and grit acquired during disassembly and reassembly when the rig is moved. Solution? BIG filter-dryers - and no more problems.

Elsewhere a prototype 1200hp electric drilling machine is a nightmare to service once installed vertically in the derrick. Why? The engineers and the guys on the assembly floor did a magnificent job, but they had gotten used to seeing the machine lying on its back,, horizontally. They lost sight of the fact that it would not be operated in that position - thus inspection doors, electrical boxes and hydraulic fittings ignored the effects of gravity that would require a service tech to hold a 60-lb cover plate in the air with one hand, while hanging from a belt some 30 feet in the air, and trying to work on heavy-duty electrical connections with his remaining hand. At night he would have to hold a flashlight in his teeth - just to increase the "degree of difficulty" rating for his performance. OOPS!

A quick engineering change order fixed all of the problems, doors and cover plates would open DOWNWARD, out of the way and a simple worklight was installed in the major terminal boxes. Simple oversights - that fortunately never made it to the production line. That's the purpose of product development.

When one of these oversights gets to production, you see TSB's and recall programs. I always think that somewhere there's a checklist being revised and circulated through engineering and manufacturing departments. Service problems that have to be resolved in the field are incredibly difficult when you have two or three dozen units sold. A thousand or fifteen-hundred constitute a nightmare. I can't imagine the proportions of the disaster caused by an automotive recall - especially one that has already killed or injured several of your customers.

LexFather

Shame Shame Shame. Way too many luxury brands on here, including Japanese ones. It really is hurting these cars prestige as this once hid data is now all over the internet and I even read it in my local paper.

I mean damn:
Cadillac
Volvo
Infiniti
Mercedes
Lincoln
Jaguar
Audi
LandRover
BMW

And even non luxury brand expensive cars by VW and Hummer=POS to own. Sad.

mmarshall

Yes, Mike, but notice a pattern here? It really is not so suprising...it sticks out like a sore thumb.

What are most (or the clear majority ) of the vehicles on this list? European luxury makes....complex cars with complex and unreliable European-designed electronics. It is no secret that European automakers use sub-standard electronics ( especially with all the talk here at CAR CHAT about it )

Yes, some Cadillac, Lincoln, and Infiniti vehicles are on the list, but that is more problematic of cheap cost-cutting on the design and materials and, in Infiniti's case, teething problems at the new Canton, MS plant where most of its SUV's are built. For example, examine closely the materials that Lincolns and Cadillacs are made of ( though Cadillac has shown some improvement in the last few years) , compare them to almost any Lexus or Acura, and you will see just what I mean.

LexFather

Its funny how some said I was picking on Infiniti when I said the QX quality was horrible but here is the proof.
Sad that its like the same Euro cars year after year. Mahn they really sell on that prestige huh?

Pearlpower

iTrader: (2)

There is something to be said about getting in a vehicle and knowing that it will not let you down. Not a surprise in that list to me. MB and BMW= Been there and done that. To agree with mmarshall, German cars have always used outdated electronics and cheap wiring. Nothing but Toyota/Lexus/Porsche(current 968 not included) products for me. Porsche actually rated #2 I believe behind Lexus. Amazing what happens when you hire Toyota to come in and ,"Clean house".
Lee

RON430

At the component level, there is no difference in any makers electronics. The days of Lucas electricals being euro trash are long gone. What makes electronics unreliable is the system architecture and higher levels of assembly. I am no luddite and fully realize the advantage of electronics but auto makers are incorporating many systems more because they can rather than to solve problems and improve the vehicle. Nowhere is this more stupidly implemented than in Europe. But the far greater problem is the automotive arrogance that many of the european mfrs have because they keep getting rewarded with increasing sales of ever greater premium priced vehicles by buyers seeking the latest bleeding edge technology demonstrator to make a fashion statement. As long as the merc, bimmer, audi, and jag consumer are willing to keep laying out the exorbitant prices demanded for continually low reliability vehicles, the mfrs have little reason to make substantive changes in their designs and practices.

Just when I was talking myself into a 7, or S, or A8, the latest data come out and I am screwed once again. It is much easier buying that bimmer or merc that you lust after and then get fantastically irate over the surprise of the thing constantly getting fixed. But if you know ahead of time that nothing has changed and that they are still bottom feeders for reliability, you have no one to blame when you decide you want that "image" other than yourself.

mmarshall

Studies have been done on this subject and they have found that the main problem with Euro-design electronics as opposed to Asian-designed ones is in the connectors. The European ones are difficult to install and clip together by feel and sound...this is a problem when you have to install them in hard-to-see and hard-to-get places like under the dash....so factory workers don't always get a secure fit. So, not surprisingly, the connectors may fall apart long before their time. The Asian, particularly the Japanese ones, on the other hand, are designed to be installed by feel....you get a positive snap and a loud " click " sound when they are coupled properly...so doing it in blind and hard-to-get places vastly decreases the chances for error.

Why the European manufacturers have not adopted this clearly superior Japanese method of assembly beats me.