Suddenly, big Buicks are no longer laughed at.
11-07-05, 05:41 PM
#16
Pole Position
Originally Posted by Threxx
Heh... as I mentioned in my last post it is the Olds Aurora chassis from 11-12 years ago almost unchanged. 
To its credit they also used it in the previous gen Caddy DTS, though that wasn't exactly the hot kid on the block, either.
To its credit they also used it in the previous gen Caddy DTS, though that wasn't exactly the hot kid on the block, either.
11-07-05, 05:44 PM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ST430
dont take that too literally...just a slight poke at a trend that gm has been doing with their cars and their need for consolidation because of massive revenue shortage. having the new chevy impala ss having similar specs cannot make this situation better.
honestly i thought the aurora was going to be a great car when it introduced. i thought it was going to be the NEXT GM. unfortuantely customers never warmed up to it, even when the V8 was introduced.
Its great to see Lutz finding his way around new projects at GM, like the Solstice, but I dont know if he has the knack to do huge mass production everyday cars, and not sports / niches.
edit: okay actually this car sounds perfect for rental fleets!
honestly i thought the aurora was going to be a great car when it introduced. i thought it was going to be the NEXT GM. unfortuantely customers never warmed up to it, even when the V8 was introduced.
Its great to see Lutz finding his way around new projects at GM, like the Solstice, but I dont know if he has the knack to do huge mass production everyday cars, and not sports / niches.
edit: okay actually this car sounds perfect for rental fleets!
11-07-05, 05:48 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ST430
When I think of buick I think of an old mans car, soft floaty with bench seating in the front and so-so acceleration.
This car has my interest up. I have the day off Wednesday.....just might go see it if they are available....and compare it to the Avalon and ES330 myself.
11-07-05, 07:46 PM
#19
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The Lucerne IMO has more anonymous styling than the Avalon.
To me at least, Avalon's exterior is more appealing, and distinct.
As well, when I sat in the new Avalon, I was impressed by the interior. I don't really see where some people are dissapointed by it. Only thing in my mind would possibly be the covers on the dash.
The Lucerne interior looks too similar to a Lacrosse, and Impala. It uses the same general centre stack. I don't think such an interior should be in a flagship car.
The Avalon still offers the better powertrain, because the Northstar V8 likely won't match the fuel economy of the Avalon, even though it may match it's performance.
What I find really odd is that the Lucerne is unofficially being positioned against the ES330. There is that article where GM engineers claim the Lucerne is quieter inside than the ES330, which they used as a benchmark.
A lot of domestic fans are using this article as a basis to say Buick is going after Lexus, and that Cadillac will leave Lexus "in the dust"
I find the Lucerne to be fair competition for the Avalon, but not the ES330. Especially if you consider that the Lucerne is all new, and the ES330 is at the end of it's life, with the ES350 just around the corner. Even so, the Lucerne at best matches the ES330 overall, it in no way actually beats it (save maybe performance and interior noise levels).
It's funny in that the only Buick than can match any Lexus is the Lucerne matching the ES330, but all rumours point to the fact that the ES350 will leave the Lucerne in the dust. Buick has nothing else in it's lineup to go againt the rest of the Lexus lineup, so I again fail to see the logic in Buick being a Lexus competitor.
Lexus is moving up to a higher luxury plane, while Buick has yet to move beyond Toyota's mainstream models, in terms of luxury.
To me at least, Avalon's exterior is more appealing, and distinct.
As well, when I sat in the new Avalon, I was impressed by the interior. I don't really see where some people are dissapointed by it. Only thing in my mind would possibly be the covers on the dash.
The Lucerne interior looks too similar to a Lacrosse, and Impala. It uses the same general centre stack. I don't think such an interior should be in a flagship car.
The Avalon still offers the better powertrain, because the Northstar V8 likely won't match the fuel economy of the Avalon, even though it may match it's performance.
What I find really odd is that the Lucerne is unofficially being positioned against the ES330. There is that article where GM engineers claim the Lucerne is quieter inside than the ES330, which they used as a benchmark.
A lot of domestic fans are using this article as a basis to say Buick is going after Lexus, and that Cadillac will leave Lexus "in the dust"
I find the Lucerne to be fair competition for the Avalon, but not the ES330. Especially if you consider that the Lucerne is all new, and the ES330 is at the end of it's life, with the ES350 just around the corner. Even so, the Lucerne at best matches the ES330 overall, it in no way actually beats it (save maybe performance and interior noise levels).
It's funny in that the only Buick than can match any Lexus is the Lucerne matching the ES330, but all rumours point to the fact that the ES350 will leave the Lucerne in the dust. Buick has nothing else in it's lineup to go againt the rest of the Lexus lineup, so I again fail to see the logic in Buick being a Lexus competitor.
Lexus is moving up to a higher luxury plane, while Buick has yet to move beyond Toyota's mainstream models, in terms of luxury.
11-07-05, 08:01 PM
#20
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
The Lucerne IMO has more anonymous styling than the Avalon.
To me at least, Avalon's exterior is more appealing, and distinct.
As well, when I sat in the new Avalon, I was impressed by the interior. I don't really see where some people are dissapointed by it. Only thing in my mind would possibly be the covers on the dash.
The Lucerne interior looks too similar to a Lacrosse, and Impala. It uses the same general centre stack. I don't think such an interior should be in a flagship car.
The Avalon still offers the better powertrain, because the Northstar V8 likely won't match the fuel economy of the Avalon, even though it may match it's performance.
What I find really odd is that the Lucerne is unofficially being positioned against the ES330. There is that article where GM engineers claim the Lucerne is quieter inside than the ES330, which they used as a benchmark.
A lot of domestic fans are using this article as a basis to say Buick is going after Lexus, and that Cadillac will leave Lexus "in the dust"
I find the Lucerne to be fair competition for the Avalon, but not the ES330. Especially if you consider that the Lucerne is all new, and the ES330 is at the end of it's life, with the ES350 just around the corner. Even so, the Lucerne at best matches the ES330 overall, it in no way actually beats it (save maybe performance and interior noise levels).
It's funny in that the only Buick than can match any Lexus is the Lucerne matching the ES330, but all rumours point to the fact that the ES350 will leave the Lucerne in the dust. Buick has nothing else in it's lineup to go againt the rest of the Lexus lineup, so I again fail to see the logic in Buick being a Lexus competitor.
Lexus is moving up to a higher luxury plane, while Buick has yet to move beyond Toyota's mainstream models, in terms of luxury.
To me at least, Avalon's exterior is more appealing, and distinct.
As well, when I sat in the new Avalon, I was impressed by the interior. I don't really see where some people are dissapointed by it. Only thing in my mind would possibly be the covers on the dash.
The Lucerne interior looks too similar to a Lacrosse, and Impala. It uses the same general centre stack. I don't think such an interior should be in a flagship car.
The Avalon still offers the better powertrain, because the Northstar V8 likely won't match the fuel economy of the Avalon, even though it may match it's performance.
What I find really odd is that the Lucerne is unofficially being positioned against the ES330. There is that article where GM engineers claim the Lucerne is quieter inside than the ES330, which they used as a benchmark.
A lot of domestic fans are using this article as a basis to say Buick is going after Lexus, and that Cadillac will leave Lexus "in the dust"
I find the Lucerne to be fair competition for the Avalon, but not the ES330. Especially if you consider that the Lucerne is all new, and the ES330 is at the end of it's life, with the ES350 just around the corner. Even so, the Lucerne at best matches the ES330 overall, it in no way actually beats it (save maybe performance and interior noise levels).
It's funny in that the only Buick than can match any Lexus is the Lucerne matching the ES330, but all rumours point to the fact that the ES350 will leave the Lucerne in the dust. Buick has nothing else in it's lineup to go againt the rest of the Lexus lineup, so I again fail to see the logic in Buick being a Lexus competitor.
Lexus is moving up to a higher luxury plane, while Buick has yet to move beyond Toyota's mainstream models, in terms of luxury.
And yes the Northstar roughly matches the 3.5L V6 when put in each car respectively although I'm sure the Northstar's power curve 'feels' a little nicer around town, it definitely does not get the gas milage of the V6 and most importantly, well, the Northstar has never been a stellar engine when it comes to durability. The 3800 V6 will probably run much longer for much less $$ in upkeep, though of course it's underpowered and noisey.
For what it's worth the article I saw did show the Lucerne being about equal in quietness to the Avalon. The northstar had a bit less noise in cabin at idle, the avalon had a bit less noise at cruise. They didn't test the V6 and they didn't test the ES, either.
You are exactly right though, even if somebody is nuts enough to think the Lacrosse or Lucerne is on par with the ES... well, they're brand new cars and the ES is old school , it has a decade and a half old motor (more or less) that's about to be replaced, a brand new chassis coming, and a brand new inside and outside + 6-speed auto and hybrid tech.
11-07-05, 08:12 PM
#21
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I'm looking forward to your review. The interior of the Lucerne loos nice, and I've always thought Autoweek had a good sense for quality. The drivetrain, well, I'll just wait and see. On paper it looks pretty weak.
11-07-05, 08:35 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by Threxx
Actually the ES330 was the benchmark for the Lacrosse which I find to be even more laughable. Drive both cars and see if you can't help but wish you were smoking whatever drug the engineers and marketing people at GM were when they thought their car was targeting the ES. Not even close. The Lucerne seems to be aiming more, at an extent, at the Avalon - but at an even higher price point with even more of an 'old person' flavor.
And yes the Northstar roughly matches the 3.5L V6 when put in each car respectively although I'm sure the Northstar's power curve 'feels' a little nicer around town, it definitely does not get the gas milage of the V6 and most importantly, well, the Northstar has never been a stellar engine when it comes to durability. The 3800 V6 will probably run much longer for much less $$ in upkeep, though of course it's underpowered and noisey.
For what it's worth the article I saw did show the Lucerne being about equal in quietness to the Avalon. The northstar had a bit less noise in cabin at idle, the avalon had a bit less noise at cruise. They didn't test the V6 and they didn't test the ES, either.
You are exactly right though, even if somebody is nuts enough to think the Lacrosse or Lucerne is on par with the ES... well, they're brand new cars and the ES is old school , it has a decade and a half old motor (more or less) that's about to be replaced, a brand new chassis coming, and a brand new inside and outside + 6-speed auto and hybrid tech.
And yes the Northstar roughly matches the 3.5L V6 when put in each car respectively although I'm sure the Northstar's power curve 'feels' a little nicer around town, it definitely does not get the gas milage of the V6 and most importantly, well, the Northstar has never been a stellar engine when it comes to durability. The 3800 V6 will probably run much longer for much less $$ in upkeep, though of course it's underpowered and noisey.
For what it's worth the article I saw did show the Lucerne being about equal in quietness to the Avalon. The northstar had a bit less noise in cabin at idle, the avalon had a bit less noise at cruise. They didn't test the V6 and they didn't test the ES, either.
You are exactly right though, even if somebody is nuts enough to think the Lacrosse or Lucerne is on par with the ES... well, they're brand new cars and the ES is old school , it has a decade and a half old motor (more or less) that's about to be replaced, a brand new chassis coming, and a brand new inside and outside + 6-speed auto and hybrid tech.
.I have sat in both a new Lacrosse and a new Avalon, and suffice to say, the Lacrosse interior was dissapointing compared to the Avalon.
It's also amazing that the Lucerne is "aiming at Lexus" and yet still uses only a 4 speed auto, even with the Northstar.
Update: looks like Edmunds posted their first drive of the Lucerne:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...leId=107882#10
Highlights:
Lucerne V6: 0 - 60 9.5 sec (per Buick's rating)
Fuel economy: 19/28 EPA
Lucerne V8: 0 - 60 7.6 sec (per Buick's rating)
Fuel economy: 17/25 EPA
Wow ... even I myself expected well ... more from the Lucerne. 0 - 60 in 9.5 sec? That's pretty pathetic if you ask me. The previous gen Avalon was not only faster, it also got better fuel economy to boot!
Even the V8 Lucerne seems to be ridiculed by the new V6 Avalon. Performance is lower than I expected, as is fuel economy.
And something else surprising: curb weight is around 4000lbs ... hello full size luxury barge!
The Avalon seems like a "lightweight" at about 3500lbs, although the Lucerne is 6 inches longer.
Also, no telescoping steering wheel or adjustable pedals (both offered on the Avalon).
Plus, article mentions that even the ES330 front seats were used as a benchmark.
I feel kind of bad for Buick, because who knows what the new ES350 will bring?
Lastly price: base CX (V6) is 27K
base CXS (V8) about 36K
... the Avalon actually has cheaper pricing.
Here is a quote from Edmunds that sums up the Lucerne:
"A navigation system will join the options list midyear, but you can't get xenon headlights, adaptive cruise control or Bluetooth wireless capability, all of which are available on the Avalon. Add to this the lack of a five-speed automatic and telescoping steering wheel, both standard items on the Toyota, as well as on the Chrysler 300 and Hyundai Azera, and it seems Buick's product planners may not know their buyers as well as they think they do.
Missing features aside, the 2006 Buick Lucerne is far and away the best car in Buick's lineup. It's roomy, quiet, comfortable and surprisingly entertaining to drive. It's also ready to take on the Avalon. "
So in short: close but no cigar, with regards to the Avalon. The ES330, not even in the same class.
11-07-05, 09:11 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
It looks like a impressive car, but it still has the "old" 3.8L pushrod V6. Don't ge me wrong, it's a great motor but it's a antique compared to the Avalon's 2GR engine and the Northstar.
11-08-05, 05:23 AM
#25
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Honestly, for the price and even at American cars costing tons more, I'd get the 300C in a heartbeat. over this.
Over a big Buick, yeah, maybe.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-08-05 at 05:36 AM.
11-08-05, 05:32 AM
#26
Lexus Champion
To GM's credit the 3.0/3.3 is just as over the hill - but then again you don't see them using it in any all new models either, from 04 onward when the GR series came out.
11-11-05, 10:27 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Threxx
To GM's credit the 3.0/3.3 is just as over the hill - but then again you don't see them using it in any all new models either, from 04 onward when the GR series came out.
