mmarshall

It wasn't so much the fact that Acura didn't do well. Acura did in fact do well here when it was introduced in 1986. Except for the ongoing popularity of the Integra with the tuner crowd, Acura, like Infiniti, was simply overshadowed by Lexus after 1990. The Lexus ES250 was not popular at all, but the LS400 was a great car and became an instant hit, overshadowing both the Q45, which sold in far fewer numbers, and the Acura Legend with its reliable but smaller V6. And neither the Legend or Q45 could equal the LS400's ride. So Acura actually did well for a time, but Lexus simply did better and overshadowed them.

jrock65

Actually, the Legend was the best selling luxury car in the US during the early 90s. So it wasn't exactly overshadowed by the LS. They were in different segments anyway, so it's hard to compare.

Gojirra99

I think what marshall means is that the Legend is only a V6 & not a truly premium model, whereas Lexus LS is a V8. Plus the fact that Lexus revolutionize how luxury cars are marketed - dealership experience & customer service etc.
The Acura TL is the best selling luxury sedan last year too, but is overshadowed by Lexus as a brand overall.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yup well said. though putting TL in the luxury sedan is kinda debatable, at least to me. but well that's beyond the scope. being best selling doesn't mean the whole brand name is there, lexus is aiming brand and i think acura needs to do that too, since it needs to depart from -- honda

BigVIPness

I think that before acura and honda do ANYTHING, they should make a V8 first! It's 2005 and they have the ***** to go against lexus when they don't have a car with 8 cylinders??

LexFather

I absolutely love the Legend and have all the respect in the world for it.

The LS though, TOTALLY reshaped the perceptions of what a luxury car is. It was like "the shot heard round the world". Every magazine around the world raved about it. It was considered the finest car, period.

The Legend is not a fair comparison, its a V-6 with FWD. It was an EXCELLENT car in its class but did not gather the response or praise like the LS did.

Imagine IF the Legend had RWD and a V-8. Then, I truly think it would have shaken the world like the LS did.

To this day, Acura hasn't changed anything in the public's eyes, EXCEPT, we are a "value" company. Which is a total contridiction to what luxury is. This "value" approach (loaded cars cheaper than the competiton) has done wonders for them as of late, with sales never better.

mmarshall

Yes...between Amethy, Henry, and 1SICK...I think you guys have got it. I was saying that the Legend, while a great car and a good seller, ( It was extremely well-built and reliable except for a few problems here and there with the manual-transmission version ) clearly was not in the same class as the original LS400 in ride quality, noise, luxury features, power and torque....a number of different areas. It was essentially a stretched and reengineered Accord FWD V6 platform competing against one of the finest luxury cars on the planet....a classic case of apples and oranges.

Iceman

I think that's oversimplistic for two reasons. One is that Acura DID change the public's perception of Japanese cars--it wasn't Lexus that first broke that ground. The Legend and the NSX vaulted the Japanese into ranks conventional wisdom thought they could never achieve. While the products since then have underwhelmed in many cases, and Lexus clearly took the ball and ran with it, it's not fair to say Acura didn't have an impact.

The other reason is that Lexus, like Acura, is in the "value" game. Price out any Lexus product with a comparably-equipped German counterpart. It will be thousands of dollars cheaper. And the fans of the German marques will tell you that the Lexus is thousands of dollars less impressive, either in performance (coming from a BMW fan) or luxury and prestige (coming from a MB fan). Lexus specializes in offering a premium experience that is great in all respects, and at a price less than you would pay for similar products from the competition. Acura has simply cut more corners and aimed a little more downscale in their application of the same basic approach.

LexFather

Great point, Acura did show people WOULD indeed buy a Japanese luxury branded car, no matter what it was called. That had to be encouraging to Lexus when it was under development under the F1 program.

The NSX is an incredible acomplishment, all aluminium (a first) top reliablity and performance to match Ferrais and Porsches of the time. However, sales died quickly and it just never caught on with the public. Odd how some cars just don't have mojo to the public, no matter how fabulous. IMO, that is needed minimal change all these years, shows how ADVANCED it was in 1990.

And it kind of pisses me off (as I love both the NSX and Porsche) how the 911 gets its ***** licked by the press for offering the SAME design for over 30 years with constant improvements, and the NSX does the SAME thing, yet the NSX is old and outdated and slow to car editors.

At least the Honda NSX, especially in R form is very much revered in Europe.

A HUGE significant difference in Lexus value and Acura value is Acura offers a lesser product for less, but its loaded while Lexus offers an equivilent product for less.

As in, Acura has the options, but not the hardware. Whereas Lexus has both.

For example.
Acura plays the I-4 and V-6 game in FWD form ONLY with the TSX and TL to battle the Germans.
Even with the IS 300, Lexus offered RWD and a I-6, JUST LIKE the Germans but cheaper. Now Lexus outpowers the Germans with more luxury for less money with the IS 250 and 350 and now offers AWD.

With Acura, you always have a niche or it lacks a huge componant. The TSX and TL are GREAT sellers and have hit their marks, but until they offer FWD only and are both Accord based.

With the GS, you get a ground up redesign and RWD, AWD and V-6 and V-8s and hybrids soon. Same tech and hardware as the Germans for less
The RL, you finally get AWD (still FWD biased) with no optional V-8. So outside of AWD, V-6 cars, they have no answer for the Germans.

The RX and MDX are very evenly matched. Both are based off other cars, both offer V-6s, both are great sellers. Lexus has now elevated with the 400h though. Acuras MDX forumla is a huge success.

They have absolutely no answer for the LX, GX, SC, LS, which battles the Germans in each category toe for toe.

Lexus has no answer for the NSX.

I think Acura sales maybe 3rd or 4th this year after BMW or Caddy, a huge accomplishment, though their cars are much cheaper than all the luxury competition.

mmarshall

I have to agree with Iceman that come what may, it will forever be a fact of automotive history that Honda was the first Japanese manufacturer to introduce an upmarket brand and upmarket vehicles, Acura, to the U.S. market, and that this new brand was in fact successful until Lexus...for reasons which we have already discusssed.......came along 4-5 years later and ended up overshadowing it. Indeed it was Acura that first convinced the American public to shell out extra money for the upmarket Japanese car.....and the public, given the good luck they had already had with low-priced Japanese products like Civics and Corollas, were only happy to do so.....and get the best of both worlds.
However, not all attempts by Japanese companies to follow in Acura's footsteps were successful. Mazda attempted to launch an upscale Amati division in the American market......only to have Ford ax it on the excuse it was too costly. In fact the innovative Mazda Millenia semi-luxury car and sports sedan with the Miller-cycle V6, was initially to have been the first Amati, but, of course then got the Mazda name when Amati was cancelled. Mitsubishi had toyed with the idea of an upscale U.S. division, too....but has so many other well-publicized problems that that issue has had to take a back seat for now.

spwolf

Honda has one big problem - they simply dont listen to the public, they put too much into what they believe and not what their customers want. This is why Toyota/Lexus is where they are today, and why Honda has to battle to keep market share.

Back in 80's and even 90's, it was Honda that was innovating the industry and Toyota that was too conservative in their business decisions. I remember reading an article about Toyota executives not wanting to approve large pickup for american market, they simply didnt not know why would anyone want anything as large, let alone give it an V8 option. US executives invited them to some texas football game, to show them what people there are driving and result was that tundra v8 was approved.

Honda on the other hand, doesnt see the need for V8, depite thousands upon thousands of customers and dealers begging for it. It didnt want to build an pickup, and finally did one minivan that looks the part. It also thought that IMA is all that customer needs, letting HSD eat its sales away. Acura is still FWD based brand, with less of brand image than Lexus or Infiniti and much less profits.

This year they will spend half a billion in F1, following Toyota (and remember, it is Honda that had decades of F1 heritage). Hopefully since F1 is using V8's now, it will help them reach decision that they need an V8 engine.

To me, it looks as if they are struggling to decide between what their customers want and what their managment thinks customers want. Hopefully new Civic is an turning point (although, where is the multilink!!!), and F1 involment shows commitment for V8 and rwd...

Acura is an good brand, with good cars, RWD sport sedan with V8 will make it better.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree. The Acura Legend over achieved, but it also had a great design and enineering execution. Two totally different cars though. The LS is pure and simple luxury boat. The Legend was probably much closer to what we like to call sports sedans/coupes back in its time. It was always offered with a 5-Speed manual, or 6-Speed manual in the later years along with the optional automatic. the 200, then 230 HP engines were very good and strong for their time. My personal experience is the Legend's V6 is a great match and moves the car better than the 1UZFE V8 in my SC400. Anyway, Acura dropped the ball in 1996 when it came out with the 3rd generation RL and new TL to replace the Vigor. If 2005 RL came out closer to 1999, Acura would be fairing much better right now. Only now are they catching back up after falling behind.

I don't believe it was the engineerings and designers at Honda/Acura though. I believe it was all the bean counters. There have been various opportunities on another forum to hear from barious Honda engineers like those who designed the NSX. Its good to hear what they want to do, but obviously back then it wasn't up to them. Honda dropped out of many racing series back in the early 90s as well. That is when they started to fall off. Now it seems like they are letting the engineers build cars rather than the guys up stairs.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree. unexpectedly I had to put the NSX into a car show this weekend. I haven't driven it for a while, and boy once you get in and start driving you remember what is all about. I haven't done much to the engine itself and even with the 270HP it is more than enough for me. However, if you need more power which we all could use, my friend has a Factor X 500+ HP NSX But yes, power wise the NSX may have fallen behind the times, but the drive is still IMHO one of the bset ever under $100K and eve over $100K in many cases. Honda NSX's came with optional navigation systems that were not offered in the US. That was a dumb move because it kind of updates the interior with a nice LCD navigation screen, and I'm sure many in the US would have loved navigation sinve many have put in aftermarket systems anyway. One more thing. The stock NSX stereo sucks

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

This may or may not be true. Honda as far as I personally know is the only major company to fly in some of their design engineers to peoples personal hoomes in the US, sit down with them over nice dinner, and ask for their specific feedback on the design, and what they wanted to see in the next Honda/Acura car. Now, obviously not everything the owners want will be included in the new designs, but what other company has done that? Honda also sends engineers and technicians to special Honda/Acura club events and holds seminars and Q&A sessions.